Heep Big Vocals
Muirsical Conversation with Bernie Shaw
Muirsical Conversation with Bernie Shaw
Singer Bernie Shaw is fast approaching a two-for-one landmark in a thirty-four years and counting career that started when he left the covers bands of his native Canada to find musical success in Britain.
Next year, 2015, legendary rock band Uriah Heep will celebrate their 45th Anniversary and Bernie Shaw will be in year number thirty as the band’s lead singer – it also puts him in a remarkable position as regards vocal longevity with the band and as a high-calibre, high-tenor rock singer.
All the more remarkable when you consider Shaw, who has developed in to one of the best and most consistent rock singers in the live environment, had throat problems in 1995 that could have conceivably shortened – or even ended – his career.
Bernie Shaw spoke to FabricationsHQ as Uriah Heep released their twenty-fourth studio album Outsider, the eighth to feature Shaw and first to feature the band's new bass player Dave Rimmer.
As well as giving a little insight in to the recording of Outsider, Bernie talked about his vocal development through the years, those extremely worrying vocal issues of 1995 and why the singer is comfortable in a kilt and not averse to the odd dram.
But the conversation opened with discussion on Outsider, an up-front rock album that accentuates the ‘Eavy and, unusual for a Uriah Heep album, eliminates the ‘Umble…
Next year, 2015, legendary rock band Uriah Heep will celebrate their 45th Anniversary and Bernie Shaw will be in year number thirty as the band’s lead singer – it also puts him in a remarkable position as regards vocal longevity with the band and as a high-calibre, high-tenor rock singer.
All the more remarkable when you consider Shaw, who has developed in to one of the best and most consistent rock singers in the live environment, had throat problems in 1995 that could have conceivably shortened – or even ended – his career.
Bernie Shaw spoke to FabricationsHQ as Uriah Heep released their twenty-fourth studio album Outsider, the eighth to feature Shaw and first to feature the band's new bass player Dave Rimmer.
As well as giving a little insight in to the recording of Outsider, Bernie talked about his vocal development through the years, those extremely worrying vocal issues of 1995 and why the singer is comfortable in a kilt and not averse to the odd dram.
But the conversation opened with discussion on Outsider, an up-front rock album that accentuates the ‘Eavy and, unusual for a Uriah Heep album, eliminates the ‘Umble…
Ross Muir: Outsider has the classic Heep sound contained within a modern rock template but it’s also a very weighty album; there’s a hard rock thread running through the entire album.
Was that intentional this time around, to release an album with such a hard rock punch?
Bernie Shaw: Absolutely. After the last couple of albums, Wake the Sleeper and Into the Wild – which we’re very proud of, especially Wake the Sleeper because there had been such a hiatus between previous recordings – we wanted to come across with a straight ahead, right between the eyes rock album, one that really emphasised the strength of our new guy on the bass Dave Rimmer; it’s Dave’s first recording with us.
And we wanted to come out and give the Heep fans a true rock album – we didn’t want to come out and recreate the wheel but we also wanted an album that had the trademark Heep bells, buttons and whistles!
I think that’s exactly what Outsider ended up being.
RM: That’s a solid summation; I made similar observations in my review of Outsider.
But I also feel the album helps describe, or emphasise, the Modus Operandi of the band in the current era, which is to create "classic Heep" sounding albums but without ever trying to recreate what has gone before. In other words making the band viable in the twenty-first century but with a clear nod to the storied Heep past.
BS: That’s a fantastic comment to hear because that’s exactly where we want to be.
We’re happy with the style of the band and the trademark sounds have always been there – or at least in the twenty-eight years that I’ve been with Heep. We’re not trying to recreate anything; we’re just doing what we do best and what we feel most comfortable with.
And, again, I think that’s exactly what Outsider has accomplished.
RM: The other point to make is with Outsider and the previous brace of albums you mentioned there has been a fairly solid consistency; each release has contained a number of excellent tracks.
Outsider for example has a number of outstanding songs – the opener Speed of Sound, closer Say Goodbye and the single One Minute all immediately come to mind…
Was that intentional this time around, to release an album with such a hard rock punch?
Bernie Shaw: Absolutely. After the last couple of albums, Wake the Sleeper and Into the Wild – which we’re very proud of, especially Wake the Sleeper because there had been such a hiatus between previous recordings – we wanted to come across with a straight ahead, right between the eyes rock album, one that really emphasised the strength of our new guy on the bass Dave Rimmer; it’s Dave’s first recording with us.
And we wanted to come out and give the Heep fans a true rock album – we didn’t want to come out and recreate the wheel but we also wanted an album that had the trademark Heep bells, buttons and whistles!
I think that’s exactly what Outsider ended up being.
RM: That’s a solid summation; I made similar observations in my review of Outsider.
But I also feel the album helps describe, or emphasise, the Modus Operandi of the band in the current era, which is to create "classic Heep" sounding albums but without ever trying to recreate what has gone before. In other words making the band viable in the twenty-first century but with a clear nod to the storied Heep past.
BS: That’s a fantastic comment to hear because that’s exactly where we want to be.
We’re happy with the style of the band and the trademark sounds have always been there – or at least in the twenty-eight years that I’ve been with Heep. We’re not trying to recreate anything; we’re just doing what we do best and what we feel most comfortable with.
And, again, I think that’s exactly what Outsider has accomplished.
RM: The other point to make is with Outsider and the previous brace of albums you mentioned there has been a fairly solid consistency; each release has contained a number of excellent tracks.
Outsider for example has a number of outstanding songs – the opener Speed of Sound, closer Say Goodbye and the single One Minute all immediately come to mind…
BS: We just try to do our best and we had fun doing this album, but it was a little bit under the cosh time-wise because there had been so much live work over the last eighteen months to two years.
When we stepped in to the studio, instead of being well prepared with fourteen or sixteen finishes songs, we had basically just a handful of ideas; that’s all they were! But we work so well as a team and by burning the candle at both ends – especially Mick [Box] and Phil [Lanzon], writing at night time then coming back in the morning with more ideas – we managed to get eleven really stonking backing tracks recorded in eleven or twelve days.
RM: Really? By any band’s measure that’s pretty astonishing.
BS: Yeah, and they wrote all the lyrics as we were recording; there were hardly any guide vocals on the songs.
RM: Which is where you come in to do what you do so well. I should tell you at this point that I don’t just check out Uriah Heep’s latest releases due to a fondness for the band that dates to back in the day; it’s also because you’re the vocalist. I’ve followed your career since the Grand Prix days.
BS: Wow. Thank you so much.
RM: Well, you might want to thank me after you’ve heard the rest of this (laughs) because it starts off as quite the criticism.
The first time I heard you was on the great little debut album by Grand Prix, which of course also featured Phil Lanzon. I kept track of you when you joined Praying Mantis before you became the singer for Stratus, previously Escape, then the move to Heep.
But, as much as you had great range and very clean high-tenor notes, I always heard a singer who was vanilla in delivery – no real identity – and an upper range that was very thin.
I still wasn’t convinced in your earliest Heep days but here's the thing, and this is very unusual for rock tenors with counter tenor range once they hit their late thirties or forties, let alone fifties…
You have more vocal depth now, and have gotten rounder in note and stronger in voice, than was the case twenty or thirty years ago.
BS: I think you’re right. I think my original sound, or non-specific traits, are because I had been in a Top 40’s rock covers band in Canada; my forte was copying the voice of everybody out there – well except for Geddy Lee (laughter); I could pretty well hit the register of everybody else out there (laughs).
We did Kansas, Boston, Styx, some Foghat, some ZZ Top – and some Uriah Heep! That’s great in a covers band, but that held me back when I made the big move to London in 1979.
The very first audition I went to, around Christmas time of that year, was for Grand Prix, known as Paris at the time. They gave me a song called You Know It Can Be and – I remember this very, very clearly – I went and sat down with three other singers and said to this one guy "I don’t think I know this song..."
RM: (laughs) sorry; I just realised where you’re going with this…
BS: Yeah (laughs), but when the guy said "oh they only finished it tonight" it still took a while for the penny to drop and think to myself "you’re not in Kansas any more, Bernie!" – or Vancouver in Canada (laughs).
I’m not joining or auditioning for a covers band, these guys are writing original material.
Even when I went to sing it I asked them how they wanted me to approach it because I didn’t know what voice to put on it. I didn’t have my own individual voice.
RM: That’s certainly what I hear on the album, but I'm willing to bet your range and clean delivery got you the gig…
When we stepped in to the studio, instead of being well prepared with fourteen or sixteen finishes songs, we had basically just a handful of ideas; that’s all they were! But we work so well as a team and by burning the candle at both ends – especially Mick [Box] and Phil [Lanzon], writing at night time then coming back in the morning with more ideas – we managed to get eleven really stonking backing tracks recorded in eleven or twelve days.
RM: Really? By any band’s measure that’s pretty astonishing.
BS: Yeah, and they wrote all the lyrics as we were recording; there were hardly any guide vocals on the songs.
RM: Which is where you come in to do what you do so well. I should tell you at this point that I don’t just check out Uriah Heep’s latest releases due to a fondness for the band that dates to back in the day; it’s also because you’re the vocalist. I’ve followed your career since the Grand Prix days.
BS: Wow. Thank you so much.
RM: Well, you might want to thank me after you’ve heard the rest of this (laughs) because it starts off as quite the criticism.
The first time I heard you was on the great little debut album by Grand Prix, which of course also featured Phil Lanzon. I kept track of you when you joined Praying Mantis before you became the singer for Stratus, previously Escape, then the move to Heep.
But, as much as you had great range and very clean high-tenor notes, I always heard a singer who was vanilla in delivery – no real identity – and an upper range that was very thin.
I still wasn’t convinced in your earliest Heep days but here's the thing, and this is very unusual for rock tenors with counter tenor range once they hit their late thirties or forties, let alone fifties…
You have more vocal depth now, and have gotten rounder in note and stronger in voice, than was the case twenty or thirty years ago.
BS: I think you’re right. I think my original sound, or non-specific traits, are because I had been in a Top 40’s rock covers band in Canada; my forte was copying the voice of everybody out there – well except for Geddy Lee (laughter); I could pretty well hit the register of everybody else out there (laughs).
We did Kansas, Boston, Styx, some Foghat, some ZZ Top – and some Uriah Heep! That’s great in a covers band, but that held me back when I made the big move to London in 1979.
The very first audition I went to, around Christmas time of that year, was for Grand Prix, known as Paris at the time. They gave me a song called You Know It Can Be and – I remember this very, very clearly – I went and sat down with three other singers and said to this one guy "I don’t think I know this song..."
RM: (laughs) sorry; I just realised where you’re going with this…
BS: Yeah (laughs), but when the guy said "oh they only finished it tonight" it still took a while for the penny to drop and think to myself "you’re not in Kansas any more, Bernie!" – or Vancouver in Canada (laughs).
I’m not joining or auditioning for a covers band, these guys are writing original material.
Even when I went to sing it I asked them how they wanted me to approach it because I didn’t know what voice to put on it. I didn’t have my own individual voice.
RM: That’s certainly what I hear on the album, but I'm willing to bet your range and clean delivery got you the gig…
BS: Those identity issues carried through to Praying Mantis when we did some recordings – I didn’t know what was expected of me and I still didn’t know what I was capable of until I met up with the Heep guys, and there's Phil Lanzon, again! – "I know this guy, I know his singing voice" (laughs).
Phil and Mick actually brought me out, my voice, and as you said I’m probably rounder now; more smooth.
That’s all because I became comfortable with the voice that I was starting to find; I wasn’t being told to sound like so and so any more. With Mick it’s "there you go, boy, you put the emotion on that one, we’ll tell you when the hairs stand on the back of our necks and then we’ll move on to the next one!"
RM: Really interesting to hear you say all that because you’re mirroring or confirming what I’ve thought or said in the past about your early career and earlier vocal phases.
But now? I have no hesitation in rating you as one of the best – and most consistent – rock tenors of the last twenty or more years.
BS: Holy cow; cheers mate.
RM: Well you deserve any accolades you receive, especially as you had to face a singer’s worst nightmare back in 1995 – potentially serious vocal/ throat problems. But, again, the extraordinary thing is I believe you got even stronger after that, vocally. All the more incredible when you consider you could have lost your singing voice.
BS: I thought I had lost my singing voice. The specialists down in Harley Street said that every voice has a life span but I wasn’t about to accept that my voice had just sung its way out.
And it was one specific doctor, Doctor Tom Harris, who said "I want to explore this more."
Tom Harris discovered it was a polyp on a muscle underneath my vocal cords – it wasn’t a nodule that singers usually get from singing improperly and straining their voice – it was something very different and very rare.
RM: So just to get this straight, this was on a muscle, not the vocal folds membrane?
BS: Yes, on a muscle. When I was singing in normal range it was okay but as soon as I went to my upper register where the vocal cords stretch and the muscles get tighter, the polyp underneath actually touched the back of one of the vocal cords and threw the mucosal wave all into disarray.
I had this distorted, un-tuneable… "crapping out," is basically what it was.
RM: Yes, pretty untechnical (laughs) but that’s exactly what happens; ouch.
BS: On a Laryngoscopy scope it looked fine, but you had to go underneath to see where the trouble was. And that’s what took the time – finding it. But Tom Harris did find it; he cut it out and I was singing like a lark two months after surgery!
Phil and Mick actually brought me out, my voice, and as you said I’m probably rounder now; more smooth.
That’s all because I became comfortable with the voice that I was starting to find; I wasn’t being told to sound like so and so any more. With Mick it’s "there you go, boy, you put the emotion on that one, we’ll tell you when the hairs stand on the back of our necks and then we’ll move on to the next one!"
RM: Really interesting to hear you say all that because you’re mirroring or confirming what I’ve thought or said in the past about your early career and earlier vocal phases.
But now? I have no hesitation in rating you as one of the best – and most consistent – rock tenors of the last twenty or more years.
BS: Holy cow; cheers mate.
RM: Well you deserve any accolades you receive, especially as you had to face a singer’s worst nightmare back in 1995 – potentially serious vocal/ throat problems. But, again, the extraordinary thing is I believe you got even stronger after that, vocally. All the more incredible when you consider you could have lost your singing voice.
BS: I thought I had lost my singing voice. The specialists down in Harley Street said that every voice has a life span but I wasn’t about to accept that my voice had just sung its way out.
And it was one specific doctor, Doctor Tom Harris, who said "I want to explore this more."
Tom Harris discovered it was a polyp on a muscle underneath my vocal cords – it wasn’t a nodule that singers usually get from singing improperly and straining their voice – it was something very different and very rare.
RM: So just to get this straight, this was on a muscle, not the vocal folds membrane?
BS: Yes, on a muscle. When I was singing in normal range it was okay but as soon as I went to my upper register where the vocal cords stretch and the muscles get tighter, the polyp underneath actually touched the back of one of the vocal cords and threw the mucosal wave all into disarray.
I had this distorted, un-tuneable… "crapping out," is basically what it was.
RM: Yes, pretty untechnical (laughs) but that’s exactly what happens; ouch.
BS: On a Laryngoscopy scope it looked fine, but you had to go underneath to see where the trouble was. And that’s what took the time – finding it. But Tom Harris did find it; he cut it out and I was singing like a lark two months after surgery!
The melodic pomp rock of Grand Prix's 1980 debut and Uriah Heep's 2014 full-on hard
rock release Outsider book-end Bernie Shaw's thirty-four year vocal career to fine effect
RM: The operation to save your singing voice was a positive result for you but the down side of such operations is not every singer recovers fully. One example is my good friend Jeremey Hunsicker, who nearly got the gig with Journey prior to Arnel Pineda’s hiring.
BS: Wow. Really?
RM: Yeah, Jeremey was the singer in Frontiers, the premier touring Journey tribute band at the time.
Long story short a tired voice from constant gigging, one specific show and a lungful of fog machine later Jeremey found himself in a similar predicament to you. The difference is after a second and not wholly successful operation Jeremey, while still doing some singing work, is effectively out of the business.
It can be a thin line.
BS: Oh my Lord. It is a thin line. At one point the doctors’ were talking about lasers and things of that nature and I’m going "wait, what the... heck?" (laughs) but Tom Harris said "No. I use cold, hard steel."
He’s got an instrument called the Harris Blade that he designed for very, very fine work. He uses it for anything to do with the throat and the particularly fine areas around the vocal cords.
Tom is well respected; he actually took a video of the operation and he also uses a video of me singing July Morning from one of the Heep DVD’s – the sequence where I’m hitting the high notes – for lectures.
He’ll be saying "this guy is fifty-eight years old and this is what he does – one hundred and twenty times a year!" (laughs).
rock release Outsider book-end Bernie Shaw's thirty-four year vocal career to fine effect
RM: The operation to save your singing voice was a positive result for you but the down side of such operations is not every singer recovers fully. One example is my good friend Jeremey Hunsicker, who nearly got the gig with Journey prior to Arnel Pineda’s hiring.
BS: Wow. Really?
RM: Yeah, Jeremey was the singer in Frontiers, the premier touring Journey tribute band at the time.
Long story short a tired voice from constant gigging, one specific show and a lungful of fog machine later Jeremey found himself in a similar predicament to you. The difference is after a second and not wholly successful operation Jeremey, while still doing some singing work, is effectively out of the business.
It can be a thin line.
BS: Oh my Lord. It is a thin line. At one point the doctors’ were talking about lasers and things of that nature and I’m going "wait, what the... heck?" (laughs) but Tom Harris said "No. I use cold, hard steel."
He’s got an instrument called the Harris Blade that he designed for very, very fine work. He uses it for anything to do with the throat and the particularly fine areas around the vocal cords.
Tom is well respected; he actually took a video of the operation and he also uses a video of me singing July Morning from one of the Heep DVD’s – the sequence where I’m hitting the high notes – for lectures.
He’ll be saying "this guy is fifty-eight years old and this is what he does – one hundred and twenty times a year!" (laughs).
BS: But it is quite amazing because even Tom didn’t know until after the operation if it was going to be a success.
RM: Great story with a happy ending, which has allowed you to continue as the voice of Uriah Heep for what is now close to thirty years. On that – did you know that next year, when the band celebrates their 45th anniversary, you’ll be approaching the point where you’ve been Heep’s singer for twice as long as every other Heep singer combined?
BS: Twice as long? Wow. I knew I had been there a long time but I’ve never sat down and done the calculations (laughs).
RM: From 2014 back to Bernie Shaw’s Year One with Uriah Heep.
When you were hired as the new lead vocalist in 1986 Mick was looking to re-establish the band after a number of personnel changes; part of the plan was clearly to find a vocalist with the range and clarity to do the classic David Byron era catalogue justice. Any pressure in taking on such a role and having to try and produce performances as good as the originals?
BS: Well I could never be better than David Byron and I don’t know if I even touch "as good" but I can honestly say that, every time I do a song David originally sang, I give it my best.
They are easy songs to get your emotions in to and I have so much fun with them – I never once did the Sammy Hagar "I’m not singing any of the other guy’s stuff" thing; you can’t do that with Heep.
The classic line-up had phenomenal success and I’m just happy to be able to stand at the microphone and give my interpretation of David’s songs.
RM: That's a nice comment. David had a relatively short career in the great scheme of things but the body of work he left – the quality of songs from that era and the vocal stamp he put on many of those songs – they do, and will continue to, stand the legacy of time. It’s nearly thirty years since David passed yet I still cite him as not just one of my all-time favourite singers but one of the greatest ever rock vocalists.
BS: He was so fantastic and boy, did he leave his mark. When he was singing live, bless him, he could be a little bit of a firecracker and very unpredictable but back then they had everything – youth, sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll – and they took everything to excess, like just about everybody else from that era (laughs).
But David in the studio… holy cow. He’s up there with Freddie Mercury and Robert Plant.
And no-one could deliver a song quite like he could.
RM: You know what it was for me, Bernie? Vocal "presence." It's something only a few vocalists possess beyond having a great voice. Mercury was one, Steve Perry is another.
It’s not just what you do with your voice; it’s another step beyond – a true vocal gravitas.
BS: Exactly. And most of the time they don’t even know they have it. They just do it.
RM: And do it exceptionally well. But you’re right about David; in his latter Heep years he was as likely to be carrying a bottle of Moët Chandon in his hand as his microphone. The drink issues were his downfall.
BS: Yes, that was the real tragedy.
RM: Nor was he the only one – Brian Connolly of The Sweet went the very same way and like David was a mercurial vocalist live. His death can also be traced back to an earlier alcohol dependency.
BS: Yes, he went exactly the same way. Gary Thain [Uriah Heep’s classic line-up bass player] did the drug trip rather than the alcohol but when you think about what went on in the early seventies…
I’m fifty-eight now but David was what, twenty-four when he hit fame?
RM: Pretty much. Twenty-four when the band started to gain recognition; twenty-five when they hit fame with Demons and Wizards and The Magician’s Birthday albums…
BS: And at that age, to have Lear jets taking you to the next show with a crate of Moët Chandon at every one of those gigs… Okay, we have a couple of bottles of nice wine, a bottle of Jack Daniels and maybe a little vodka but these guys were on a whole different level. These guys were serious rock stars.
RM: Absolutely. It was, as you said, rock and roll lifestyle to excess.
BS: So we’re just happy to be still doing it, alive and kickin’ and healthy – because without your health you might as well just give up. And I think we’re still making contributions; we’re still writing good rock songs and not sitting back on the laurels saying "yeah, the original band was great and now we’re just doing it for the money." That never, ever entered in to our minds; that side of things.
RM: Ah, the reunion shows and Greatest Hits tours, featuring whoever has the controlling rights to the name that particular week. Good luck to them; there’s a market for that side of classic rock no matter what shape or form the bands may be in – and those guys have to make a living like the rest of us.
But Uriah Heep never fitted that profile. Yes, there have been multiple line-ups and the tragic deaths of Gary and David mean Heep could never do a classic line-up reunion even if they wanted to.
But Uriah Heep have never stopped. Mick has kept Heep going for forty-five years, through thick and thin, and the band remain viable in the twenty-first century through solid, new material whilst acknowledging the past by playing a selection of the classics. And let’s be honest, you daren’t drop the classics.
BS: No you couldn’t; there’s too much of a longevity there. You can’t turn your back on the songs that got you where you are today. We are so lucky to have so many songs that stand the test of time and an audience that still want to come out and hear them. It might not be the same five guys on stage but it has exactly the same heart as the originals and the classic five line-up. I think that stands for a lot.
RM: Talking of longevity, there is a clear camaraderie and musical chemistry within the band; to the extent that it almost seems like a family as much as a five-piece rock band.
BS: We are definitely like a family; as dysfunctional as one (laughs) but also as determined and loving as one. We spend more time together as five guys as we do with our families – I’ve been married eight years and have two young kids yet I still spend more time with Mick Box! (laughter).
But then he’s my best mate; he was my best man at my wedding and we hang out together. We’re the first ones on the phone to each other after a tour – Mick’s on the telephone after two days with an invite to come over for dinner and to crack open a couple of bottles of Châteauneuf-du-Pape.
Then a couple of months later he’s up at my place with his family and we’re having a laugh together.
We are so much more than just bandmates; we’re friends. And with a guy as real as Mick Box you’re a friend for life.
RM: As you made those comments a memory flashback came to me from, of all things, the Starsky and Hutch television series. I remember a line directed towards the pair of them, something like "so you two detectives are friends?" to which their reply was "no, we’re friends who happen to be detectives."
It sounds like that line could be reworded for you and Mick and the band in general – "no, we’re good mates who just happen to play in the same rock band."
BS: Yes! (laughs) That’s it exactly. That’s very, very true.
RM: Great story with a happy ending, which has allowed you to continue as the voice of Uriah Heep for what is now close to thirty years. On that – did you know that next year, when the band celebrates their 45th anniversary, you’ll be approaching the point where you’ve been Heep’s singer for twice as long as every other Heep singer combined?
BS: Twice as long? Wow. I knew I had been there a long time but I’ve never sat down and done the calculations (laughs).
RM: From 2014 back to Bernie Shaw’s Year One with Uriah Heep.
When you were hired as the new lead vocalist in 1986 Mick was looking to re-establish the band after a number of personnel changes; part of the plan was clearly to find a vocalist with the range and clarity to do the classic David Byron era catalogue justice. Any pressure in taking on such a role and having to try and produce performances as good as the originals?
BS: Well I could never be better than David Byron and I don’t know if I even touch "as good" but I can honestly say that, every time I do a song David originally sang, I give it my best.
They are easy songs to get your emotions in to and I have so much fun with them – I never once did the Sammy Hagar "I’m not singing any of the other guy’s stuff" thing; you can’t do that with Heep.
The classic line-up had phenomenal success and I’m just happy to be able to stand at the microphone and give my interpretation of David’s songs.
RM: That's a nice comment. David had a relatively short career in the great scheme of things but the body of work he left – the quality of songs from that era and the vocal stamp he put on many of those songs – they do, and will continue to, stand the legacy of time. It’s nearly thirty years since David passed yet I still cite him as not just one of my all-time favourite singers but one of the greatest ever rock vocalists.
BS: He was so fantastic and boy, did he leave his mark. When he was singing live, bless him, he could be a little bit of a firecracker and very unpredictable but back then they had everything – youth, sex, drugs and rock ‘n’ roll – and they took everything to excess, like just about everybody else from that era (laughs).
But David in the studio… holy cow. He’s up there with Freddie Mercury and Robert Plant.
And no-one could deliver a song quite like he could.
RM: You know what it was for me, Bernie? Vocal "presence." It's something only a few vocalists possess beyond having a great voice. Mercury was one, Steve Perry is another.
It’s not just what you do with your voice; it’s another step beyond – a true vocal gravitas.
BS: Exactly. And most of the time they don’t even know they have it. They just do it.
RM: And do it exceptionally well. But you’re right about David; in his latter Heep years he was as likely to be carrying a bottle of Moët Chandon in his hand as his microphone. The drink issues were his downfall.
BS: Yes, that was the real tragedy.
RM: Nor was he the only one – Brian Connolly of The Sweet went the very same way and like David was a mercurial vocalist live. His death can also be traced back to an earlier alcohol dependency.
BS: Yes, he went exactly the same way. Gary Thain [Uriah Heep’s classic line-up bass player] did the drug trip rather than the alcohol but when you think about what went on in the early seventies…
I’m fifty-eight now but David was what, twenty-four when he hit fame?
RM: Pretty much. Twenty-four when the band started to gain recognition; twenty-five when they hit fame with Demons and Wizards and The Magician’s Birthday albums…
BS: And at that age, to have Lear jets taking you to the next show with a crate of Moët Chandon at every one of those gigs… Okay, we have a couple of bottles of nice wine, a bottle of Jack Daniels and maybe a little vodka but these guys were on a whole different level. These guys were serious rock stars.
RM: Absolutely. It was, as you said, rock and roll lifestyle to excess.
BS: So we’re just happy to be still doing it, alive and kickin’ and healthy – because without your health you might as well just give up. And I think we’re still making contributions; we’re still writing good rock songs and not sitting back on the laurels saying "yeah, the original band was great and now we’re just doing it for the money." That never, ever entered in to our minds; that side of things.
RM: Ah, the reunion shows and Greatest Hits tours, featuring whoever has the controlling rights to the name that particular week. Good luck to them; there’s a market for that side of classic rock no matter what shape or form the bands may be in – and those guys have to make a living like the rest of us.
But Uriah Heep never fitted that profile. Yes, there have been multiple line-ups and the tragic deaths of Gary and David mean Heep could never do a classic line-up reunion even if they wanted to.
But Uriah Heep have never stopped. Mick has kept Heep going for forty-five years, through thick and thin, and the band remain viable in the twenty-first century through solid, new material whilst acknowledging the past by playing a selection of the classics. And let’s be honest, you daren’t drop the classics.
BS: No you couldn’t; there’s too much of a longevity there. You can’t turn your back on the songs that got you where you are today. We are so lucky to have so many songs that stand the test of time and an audience that still want to come out and hear them. It might not be the same five guys on stage but it has exactly the same heart as the originals and the classic five line-up. I think that stands for a lot.
RM: Talking of longevity, there is a clear camaraderie and musical chemistry within the band; to the extent that it almost seems like a family as much as a five-piece rock band.
BS: We are definitely like a family; as dysfunctional as one (laughs) but also as determined and loving as one. We spend more time together as five guys as we do with our families – I’ve been married eight years and have two young kids yet I still spend more time with Mick Box! (laughter).
But then he’s my best mate; he was my best man at my wedding and we hang out together. We’re the first ones on the phone to each other after a tour – Mick’s on the telephone after two days with an invite to come over for dinner and to crack open a couple of bottles of Châteauneuf-du-Pape.
Then a couple of months later he’s up at my place with his family and we’re having a laugh together.
We are so much more than just bandmates; we’re friends. And with a guy as real as Mick Box you’re a friend for life.
RM: As you made those comments a memory flashback came to me from, of all things, the Starsky and Hutch television series. I remember a line directed towards the pair of them, something like "so you two detectives are friends?" to which their reply was "no, we’re friends who happen to be detectives."
It sounds like that line could be reworded for you and Mick and the band in general – "no, we’re good mates who just happen to play in the same rock band."
BS: Yes! (laughs) That’s it exactly. That’s very, very true.
The Starsky & Hutch of the hard rock world:
Best mates Bernie Shaw and Mick Box, the ever-present heart and soul of Uriah Heep.
RM: Going back to your comments on family there was familial loss in the Heep ranks when Trevor Bolder was lost to cancer in 2013. Outsider is the first Uriah Heep album in nigh on thirty years not to feature his outstanding talents – how was it going in to the studio without Trevor?
BS: Boy, the first few days were quite emotional, to say the least. But the most stressed was probably Dave Rimmer because he had never done any recording with the band before.
Dave had done some work with Zodiac Mindwarp but not with a rock band of our calibre; and he didn’t know what our Modus Operandi was in the studio.
We go in on the first day and it's noses to the grindstone. We record all in one room and do it all in one take – we’ll do that maybe three times and if it’s not right we scrap it for the day and move on.
So Dave had to really step up to the mark and he’s standing in Trevor’s shoes; but he has nothing to be embarrassed about because I think he has put some amazing bass parts down on the album.
And Dave is very much the same kind of player Trevor was – very melodic with his fingers and running melody lines on the bass. And he’s really fit in – in fact there were a couple of times when we were sitting with a glass of wine after a recording session, saying "I think Trevor is smiling down on us."
He’s got his cup of tea up there and he’s going "ey up boys, you’ve made a good move there!"
RM: As regards Dave’s playing style and his commitment to the cause I don’t doubt he would get the Trevor Bolder seal of approval.
BS: Well we had John Jowitt for a couple of shows while Trevor was still sick and he was okay as regards how the band was sounding. But unfortunately JJ didn’t quite fit the personality and the workings of the band as much as we really needed; that’s why he didn’t last.
But Dave’s approach – the way he slid in and made his own mark – I think Trevor was definitely looking down and giving his approval.
RM: Just before we move on, I have to say that when Trevor was in the band alongside long-time Heep drummer Lee Kerslake, you had what was one of the best – but most under-rated – rhythm sections in rock.
BS: Definitely; they had something. There was a spark of magic between them. Lee had one of these John Bonham open styles and Trev was such an under-rated bass player. He would come down from Hull on the train (laughs); he didn’t want a private car to pick him up or a personal roadie to take care of his bass – he carried it himself. He was just a normal guy that was in a really cool position.
And he never blew his own horn about playing with David Bowie and The Spiders From Mars, who were a very instrumental band back in the day.
RM: Indeed. And although billed as David Bowie’s backing band they were a band in their own right; for me it was more a case of a quartet that featured the songs and voice of David Bowie.
Trevor went on to become one of the greatest rock bassists Britain ever produced but, as we said, so under-rated.
BS: Oh, completely.
RM: And nice to see Lee, who left the band because of poor health in 2007, back behind a drum kit.
I did some promotional work for Lee and the Berggren Kerslake Band end of last year; it was great to catch up with Lee again.
BS: Yeah, he’s back on the drum throne with a pair of sticks in his hand and he’s playing with guys that are sounding really good. I’m so glad he didn’t just melt away into the cobwebs and became another rock and roll casualty – he’s back in there and giving it his all!
RM: Oh, there was no chance of him retiring – once he got his health back he was always going to get back on a drum stool; he just loves to play.
But in the ongoing story of Uriah Heep we have another chapter and another powerful rhythm section in the shape of Russell Gilbrook and Dave Rimmer.
BS: I think so, yeah. And as we stand right now, this has got to be one of the strongest ever live line-ups.
RM: And as regards seeing that line-up in the UK?
BS: There are a lot of gigs lined up already but they are across Europe, Russia and America so not this year for the UK, but definitely 2015. We usually go out for about eighteen months on an album so plenty of time to get back to the UK for tour dates.
RM: As we wrap up I have to finish on something I’ve always meant to ask you about – the surname, the ancestry and the fact that when you were in Edinburgh back in 2004 you made mention of getting yourself a kilt…
BS: I don’t know how far back we go on the Scottish side but I know there is a Scottish heritage – and not just because I was in the Canadian Scottish Cadets from the age of twelve to seventeen, playing drums in a pipe band! (laughs).
And yes, when we were in Edinburgh that year I got my family tartan made because I had always said if I ever get married it will be in my kilt! And I did! I wore the Ancient Shaw family tartan.
We have a couple of other tartans – the Shaw Dress, the Hunting Shaw – and I can wear any of the Mackintosh tartans; we’re part of the Mackintosh Clan.
I also bought a pure black kilt which I wore around the streets of Edinburgh – very rock and roll!
RM: Clearly you’re one of us, laddie (laughs). But then being Canadian you’re already half way there...
BS: (laughs) and I have to tell you I feel more at home in a kilt than I do in a pair of hose – and I’m a fan of a dram of the Macallan as well!
RM: Well that being the case we'll continue this conversation over a dram or two next time you are in the neighbourhood; but right now Bernie I'm afraid it's time to Say Goodbye...
BS: Thanks mate, and cheers!
Best mates Bernie Shaw and Mick Box, the ever-present heart and soul of Uriah Heep.
RM: Going back to your comments on family there was familial loss in the Heep ranks when Trevor Bolder was lost to cancer in 2013. Outsider is the first Uriah Heep album in nigh on thirty years not to feature his outstanding talents – how was it going in to the studio without Trevor?
BS: Boy, the first few days were quite emotional, to say the least. But the most stressed was probably Dave Rimmer because he had never done any recording with the band before.
Dave had done some work with Zodiac Mindwarp but not with a rock band of our calibre; and he didn’t know what our Modus Operandi was in the studio.
We go in on the first day and it's noses to the grindstone. We record all in one room and do it all in one take – we’ll do that maybe three times and if it’s not right we scrap it for the day and move on.
So Dave had to really step up to the mark and he’s standing in Trevor’s shoes; but he has nothing to be embarrassed about because I think he has put some amazing bass parts down on the album.
And Dave is very much the same kind of player Trevor was – very melodic with his fingers and running melody lines on the bass. And he’s really fit in – in fact there were a couple of times when we were sitting with a glass of wine after a recording session, saying "I think Trevor is smiling down on us."
He’s got his cup of tea up there and he’s going "ey up boys, you’ve made a good move there!"
RM: As regards Dave’s playing style and his commitment to the cause I don’t doubt he would get the Trevor Bolder seal of approval.
BS: Well we had John Jowitt for a couple of shows while Trevor was still sick and he was okay as regards how the band was sounding. But unfortunately JJ didn’t quite fit the personality and the workings of the band as much as we really needed; that’s why he didn’t last.
But Dave’s approach – the way he slid in and made his own mark – I think Trevor was definitely looking down and giving his approval.
RM: Just before we move on, I have to say that when Trevor was in the band alongside long-time Heep drummer Lee Kerslake, you had what was one of the best – but most under-rated – rhythm sections in rock.
BS: Definitely; they had something. There was a spark of magic between them. Lee had one of these John Bonham open styles and Trev was such an under-rated bass player. He would come down from Hull on the train (laughs); he didn’t want a private car to pick him up or a personal roadie to take care of his bass – he carried it himself. He was just a normal guy that was in a really cool position.
And he never blew his own horn about playing with David Bowie and The Spiders From Mars, who were a very instrumental band back in the day.
RM: Indeed. And although billed as David Bowie’s backing band they were a band in their own right; for me it was more a case of a quartet that featured the songs and voice of David Bowie.
Trevor went on to become one of the greatest rock bassists Britain ever produced but, as we said, so under-rated.
BS: Oh, completely.
RM: And nice to see Lee, who left the band because of poor health in 2007, back behind a drum kit.
I did some promotional work for Lee and the Berggren Kerslake Band end of last year; it was great to catch up with Lee again.
BS: Yeah, he’s back on the drum throne with a pair of sticks in his hand and he’s playing with guys that are sounding really good. I’m so glad he didn’t just melt away into the cobwebs and became another rock and roll casualty – he’s back in there and giving it his all!
RM: Oh, there was no chance of him retiring – once he got his health back he was always going to get back on a drum stool; he just loves to play.
But in the ongoing story of Uriah Heep we have another chapter and another powerful rhythm section in the shape of Russell Gilbrook and Dave Rimmer.
BS: I think so, yeah. And as we stand right now, this has got to be one of the strongest ever live line-ups.
RM: And as regards seeing that line-up in the UK?
BS: There are a lot of gigs lined up already but they are across Europe, Russia and America so not this year for the UK, but definitely 2015. We usually go out for about eighteen months on an album so plenty of time to get back to the UK for tour dates.
RM: As we wrap up I have to finish on something I’ve always meant to ask you about – the surname, the ancestry and the fact that when you were in Edinburgh back in 2004 you made mention of getting yourself a kilt…
BS: I don’t know how far back we go on the Scottish side but I know there is a Scottish heritage – and not just because I was in the Canadian Scottish Cadets from the age of twelve to seventeen, playing drums in a pipe band! (laughs).
And yes, when we were in Edinburgh that year I got my family tartan made because I had always said if I ever get married it will be in my kilt! And I did! I wore the Ancient Shaw family tartan.
We have a couple of other tartans – the Shaw Dress, the Hunting Shaw – and I can wear any of the Mackintosh tartans; we’re part of the Mackintosh Clan.
I also bought a pure black kilt which I wore around the streets of Edinburgh – very rock and roll!
RM: Clearly you’re one of us, laddie (laughs). But then being Canadian you’re already half way there...
BS: (laughs) and I have to tell you I feel more at home in a kilt than I do in a pair of hose – and I’m a fan of a dram of the Macallan as well!
RM: Well that being the case we'll continue this conversation over a dram or two next time you are in the neighbourhood; but right now Bernie I'm afraid it's time to Say Goodbye...
BS: Thanks mate, and cheers!
Ross Muir
Muirsical Conversation with Bernie Shaw
June 2014
Outsider is available on Frontiers Records.
Photo Credits
Bernie Shaw & Mick Box - sourced from www.stormbringer.at
Bernie Shaw/ publicity image - sourced from www.bluestage.de
Audio tracks presented to accompany the above article and to promote the work of the artist.
No infringement of copyright is intended.
Muirsical Conversation with Bernie Shaw
June 2014
Outsider is available on Frontiers Records.
Photo Credits
Bernie Shaw & Mick Box - sourced from www.stormbringer.at
Bernie Shaw/ publicity image - sourced from www.bluestage.de
Audio tracks presented to accompany the above article and to promote the work of the artist.
No infringement of copyright is intended.