"Your genre is your voice..."
Muirsical Conversation with Rebecca Downes (and Steve Birkett)
Muirsical Conversation with Rebecca Downes (and Steve Birkett)
Rebecca Downes is one of the best (and arguably the best) female vocalists in British blues rock land.
But while a handful of awards help underline that claim the powerfully voiced singer, who is also a vocal coach (Rebecca Downes knows vocality like very few others) has yet to make it beyond the blues rock club level her talents, and songwriting partnership with guitarist Steve Birkett, so obviously deserve.
However third studio album More Sinner Than Saint, a project that benefited from song and arrangement advisory from noted producer Chris Kimsey, not only showcases just how good Rebecca Downes is, the step up in songwriting should also lead to a notable step up in commercial fortunes.
In an extended conversation with FabricationsHQ Rebecca Downes spoke about the new album and some of the more significant songs, engaged in honest and open discussion about her fortunes thus far (including the pros and cons of not being genre specific within the blues and rock scene) and her thoughts on, and hopes for, the future of both the Rebecca Downes Band and More Sinner Than Saint
(whose fates you can’t help but feel are intertwined).
But before looking forward we looked back to the singer’s formative years and how her songwriting partnership with Steve Birkett (who joined the conversation at various points to add his own insights) began, and developed...
But while a handful of awards help underline that claim the powerfully voiced singer, who is also a vocal coach (Rebecca Downes knows vocality like very few others) has yet to make it beyond the blues rock club level her talents, and songwriting partnership with guitarist Steve Birkett, so obviously deserve.
However third studio album More Sinner Than Saint, a project that benefited from song and arrangement advisory from noted producer Chris Kimsey, not only showcases just how good Rebecca Downes is, the step up in songwriting should also lead to a notable step up in commercial fortunes.
In an extended conversation with FabricationsHQ Rebecca Downes spoke about the new album and some of the more significant songs, engaged in honest and open discussion about her fortunes thus far (including the pros and cons of not being genre specific within the blues and rock scene) and her thoughts on, and hopes for, the future of both the Rebecca Downes Band and More Sinner Than Saint
(whose fates you can’t help but feel are intertwined).
But before looking forward we looked back to the singer’s formative years and how her songwriting partnership with Steve Birkett (who joined the conversation at various points to add his own insights) began, and developed...
Ross Muir: I’d like to go Back to the Start, debut album pun intended, and find out how you first hooked up with Steve Birkett – and how a Wolverhampton girl gets the blues in the first place...
Rebecca Downes: Well Back to the Start was, for Steve and me, just that – going back to the start.
We were songwriters before we met and what we found, once we teamed up, was that we tended to touch on the songs, and sort of songs styles, we both loved – hence we called the first album Back to the Start, which was also the name of one of the songs.
Before we met I had been in a few rockier, heavier groups and blues bands playing some originals, but mostly covers. Steve had actually been in a signed band in the eighties...
Steve Birkett: That's right, but before that I was doing stuff that’s a lot different from what we’re doing now.
I was in to the whole singer-songwriter thing back when I was at University; I was doing folk club gigs but with my own material, which was more soul based – meaning sometimes it went down very well and other times went down like a lead parachute!
I got into various bands after that as part of easing the pressures of being a teacher, which is what I was doing before the music; that developed in to the band that got signed.
That was going very well – we were actually due to tour with The Boomtown Rats and then Bob Geldof got fully involved in what became Live Aid, disappeared off to Africa and that was that!
We carried on for what was a very productive year until we ran out of energy and money; that’s when I went back in to teaching music, drama and art.
That's also around the time I met Rebecca, who was setting up a blues covers band with a mutual friend.
I mentioned to Becks I did a bit of songwriting, played her a couple of songs and she was knocked out by them.
RD: Yeah, I remember when we first met we went back to Steve's home studio and he played some songs he had recently written. I said "Why are we messing about? We need to start writing together, playing together and pretty much start again, together."
Not that we had given up but that was a period when we had both started to put the music thing on hold, but when we found each other we got excited about each other’s songwriting; that made us both ignite again.
We both thought "Maybe we should so something about this."
SB: Which is exactly what we did. We wrote a few songs, which got picked up by Mark Stuart at Mad Hat studios, which is now the record label, got a band together, did an EP and away we went!
RM: And that's how a Wolverhampton girl got the blues?
RD: How does a Wolverhampton girl not get the blues! [laughs]. Actually, for me, it was by growing up in a house that was playing Ella Fitzgerald, Etta James, Frank Sinatra and a host of others from that time, like Julie London, who I absolutely loved.
There was also The Carpenters and the voice of Karen Carpenter; that's about as recent as my parents got!
I remember my mum saying when I was a kid "If you want to be a singer then that’s who you’ve got to sound like, Karen Carpenter" because she was the tops.
RM: Well as female vocalists go, that's a truly luminary one to aim for…
RB: I know! I remember when mum said that I was thinking "Bloody hell, no pressure then!" [laughs]
So it sort of all went from there; I listened to what they were singing and playing, did my own little bit of research and took it in a slightly direction.
RM: Those influences and references are interesting because Back to the Start is a real melting pot of the sort of songs those singers were performing; it’s a modern crossover blues take on the Ella Fitzgerald’s of the earlier blues and jazz-swing era and others such as Sarah Vaughan.
RD: That warms the cockles of my heart to hear you say Sarah Vaughan because that’s a name I missed out. She was definitely an influence and a singer that knocked me out when I was a kid.
RM: It’s also interesting you mention Karen Carpenter because while there is no real similarity in your respective tonalities, timbre or song styles, in terms of making it all about pitch and intonation, sense of melody and lyrical phrasing, I have no hesitation in comparing you to Karen Carpenter.
RD: Wow. I feel quite humbled by that. As I said in our house these were the singers that were held up as real singers. Those singers and those styles were what good music was, and is.
It was a case of this is what a real singer can do; listen to what this particular singer does with their voice.
It was their tonalities, deliveries and the perfection of those deliveries; just unreal.
For me as a vocal coach and, as you well know, a complete vocal obsessive [laughs], it’s all about the creation of that sound and the different vocal textures – you just listen to how some of these sounds are being executed; just amazing.
Cry Me a River by Julie London – if you listen to the opening few bars of that song and the word "Now" and the following words "you say you’re lonely," that should be a lesson for any singer. They are so perfect.
Now, unfortunately you get The X Factor and other similar reality shows where I really feel sorry for the contestants, because I believe that’s the wrong way to go about it.
There are people on those shows who really do have some natural ability but they’re winging it – it’s very obvious, or is to me. I immediately hear them and think "They don’t know where they’re going with this."
What I try to stress to all my students is that you have to know exactly where you’re going and you have to know exactly how you are colouring in the picture.
You also have to know how deep you should be breathing, what your stance should be; you have to know so many things all at the same time and be totally secure with them.
Then, and only then, can you create; otherwise you really are just winging it.
RM: Yes, it’s about having not just the ability but the vocal intelligence to make it all come together.
You have all the characteristics just mentioned – the complete vocal vocabulary – but I have to say while Back to the Start showcased the various Rebecca Downes song styles, second album Believe was, for me, the true starting point as regards Rebecca Downes as a singer and as a strong songwriter with Steve.
Believe has some outstanding numbers, the title track and Sailing On a Pool of Tears to name but two.
That album, and the subsequent British Blues awards, was a good, critically acclaimed period for you.
RD: It absolutely was, yes, but it’s very hard for me to listen to the vocal performances on both those albums and the earlier EP and really love them – I hear what they could be, not what they are, but then I am exceptionally critical of my own performances.
I love the songs on Believe but with the new album, as regards the way I have delivered the vocals and the way it was recorded, it reflects what I’ve wanted to do from the start.
RM: So are you the singing equivalent of the hyper critical actor or actress who won’t watch their past work as they will just see faults or what they could have done better?
RD: With the EP and the two previous albums, yes, without any doubt! [laughs].
I love them, but it is very hard for me to listen to them because there are some things I did on them where I just think to myself "Oh my God, Rebecca!" [laughs].
I know a lot of people like them and I do think the songs are great, but I feel I could have done so much better.
RM: Well, on the plus side, you are such a great live singer and performer with such a great band, you know you can pull those songs out from the back catalogue and deliver them live, better than the original studio recordings.
RD: Oh way better, I would say. I much prefer the live versions we do and the versions that appeared on BeLive, the live album we did.
In fact, BeLive sums up, quite succinctly, the best of those two albums – it’s almost saying "Right, you’ve heard them in the studio but this is how they should have sounded and how far they have progressed."
Rebecca Downes: Well Back to the Start was, for Steve and me, just that – going back to the start.
We were songwriters before we met and what we found, once we teamed up, was that we tended to touch on the songs, and sort of songs styles, we both loved – hence we called the first album Back to the Start, which was also the name of one of the songs.
Before we met I had been in a few rockier, heavier groups and blues bands playing some originals, but mostly covers. Steve had actually been in a signed band in the eighties...
Steve Birkett: That's right, but before that I was doing stuff that’s a lot different from what we’re doing now.
I was in to the whole singer-songwriter thing back when I was at University; I was doing folk club gigs but with my own material, which was more soul based – meaning sometimes it went down very well and other times went down like a lead parachute!
I got into various bands after that as part of easing the pressures of being a teacher, which is what I was doing before the music; that developed in to the band that got signed.
That was going very well – we were actually due to tour with The Boomtown Rats and then Bob Geldof got fully involved in what became Live Aid, disappeared off to Africa and that was that!
We carried on for what was a very productive year until we ran out of energy and money; that’s when I went back in to teaching music, drama and art.
That's also around the time I met Rebecca, who was setting up a blues covers band with a mutual friend.
I mentioned to Becks I did a bit of songwriting, played her a couple of songs and she was knocked out by them.
RD: Yeah, I remember when we first met we went back to Steve's home studio and he played some songs he had recently written. I said "Why are we messing about? We need to start writing together, playing together and pretty much start again, together."
Not that we had given up but that was a period when we had both started to put the music thing on hold, but when we found each other we got excited about each other’s songwriting; that made us both ignite again.
We both thought "Maybe we should so something about this."
SB: Which is exactly what we did. We wrote a few songs, which got picked up by Mark Stuart at Mad Hat studios, which is now the record label, got a band together, did an EP and away we went!
RM: And that's how a Wolverhampton girl got the blues?
RD: How does a Wolverhampton girl not get the blues! [laughs]. Actually, for me, it was by growing up in a house that was playing Ella Fitzgerald, Etta James, Frank Sinatra and a host of others from that time, like Julie London, who I absolutely loved.
There was also The Carpenters and the voice of Karen Carpenter; that's about as recent as my parents got!
I remember my mum saying when I was a kid "If you want to be a singer then that’s who you’ve got to sound like, Karen Carpenter" because she was the tops.
RM: Well as female vocalists go, that's a truly luminary one to aim for…
RB: I know! I remember when mum said that I was thinking "Bloody hell, no pressure then!" [laughs]
So it sort of all went from there; I listened to what they were singing and playing, did my own little bit of research and took it in a slightly direction.
RM: Those influences and references are interesting because Back to the Start is a real melting pot of the sort of songs those singers were performing; it’s a modern crossover blues take on the Ella Fitzgerald’s of the earlier blues and jazz-swing era and others such as Sarah Vaughan.
RD: That warms the cockles of my heart to hear you say Sarah Vaughan because that’s a name I missed out. She was definitely an influence and a singer that knocked me out when I was a kid.
RM: It’s also interesting you mention Karen Carpenter because while there is no real similarity in your respective tonalities, timbre or song styles, in terms of making it all about pitch and intonation, sense of melody and lyrical phrasing, I have no hesitation in comparing you to Karen Carpenter.
RD: Wow. I feel quite humbled by that. As I said in our house these were the singers that were held up as real singers. Those singers and those styles were what good music was, and is.
It was a case of this is what a real singer can do; listen to what this particular singer does with their voice.
It was their tonalities, deliveries and the perfection of those deliveries; just unreal.
For me as a vocal coach and, as you well know, a complete vocal obsessive [laughs], it’s all about the creation of that sound and the different vocal textures – you just listen to how some of these sounds are being executed; just amazing.
Cry Me a River by Julie London – if you listen to the opening few bars of that song and the word "Now" and the following words "you say you’re lonely," that should be a lesson for any singer. They are so perfect.
Now, unfortunately you get The X Factor and other similar reality shows where I really feel sorry for the contestants, because I believe that’s the wrong way to go about it.
There are people on those shows who really do have some natural ability but they’re winging it – it’s very obvious, or is to me. I immediately hear them and think "They don’t know where they’re going with this."
What I try to stress to all my students is that you have to know exactly where you’re going and you have to know exactly how you are colouring in the picture.
You also have to know how deep you should be breathing, what your stance should be; you have to know so many things all at the same time and be totally secure with them.
Then, and only then, can you create; otherwise you really are just winging it.
RM: Yes, it’s about having not just the ability but the vocal intelligence to make it all come together.
You have all the characteristics just mentioned – the complete vocal vocabulary – but I have to say while Back to the Start showcased the various Rebecca Downes song styles, second album Believe was, for me, the true starting point as regards Rebecca Downes as a singer and as a strong songwriter with Steve.
Believe has some outstanding numbers, the title track and Sailing On a Pool of Tears to name but two.
That album, and the subsequent British Blues awards, was a good, critically acclaimed period for you.
RD: It absolutely was, yes, but it’s very hard for me to listen to the vocal performances on both those albums and the earlier EP and really love them – I hear what they could be, not what they are, but then I am exceptionally critical of my own performances.
I love the songs on Believe but with the new album, as regards the way I have delivered the vocals and the way it was recorded, it reflects what I’ve wanted to do from the start.
RM: So are you the singing equivalent of the hyper critical actor or actress who won’t watch their past work as they will just see faults or what they could have done better?
RD: With the EP and the two previous albums, yes, without any doubt! [laughs].
I love them, but it is very hard for me to listen to them because there are some things I did on them where I just think to myself "Oh my God, Rebecca!" [laughs].
I know a lot of people like them and I do think the songs are great, but I feel I could have done so much better.
RM: Well, on the plus side, you are such a great live singer and performer with such a great band, you know you can pull those songs out from the back catalogue and deliver them live, better than the original studio recordings.
RD: Oh way better, I would say. I much prefer the live versions we do and the versions that appeared on BeLive, the live album we did.
In fact, BeLive sums up, quite succinctly, the best of those two albums – it’s almost saying "Right, you’ve heard them in the studio but this is how they should have sounded and how far they have progressed."
RM: From that best of the first two albums on BeLive to brand new album More Sinner Than Saint.
This is your biggest, boldest and strongest work to date.
RD: Thank you very much. For me, this album is everything; it’s more important to me than anything I have ever done in my life, creatively. And I know Steve feels exactly the same – More Sinner Than Saint is what we are both, truly, all about, one hundred percent, from the songwriting to the deliveries to the final mix.
Believe it or not though, it’s not that big a change for us – but there is a pivotal song on the album called Stand On My Feet, which I wrote five years ago.
Steve and I demo’d it, about four years ago, but we weren’t ready to write an album like that, or around a song like that, even although that’s what we wanted to do!
SB: It was actually due to go on Believe; but it was a little too different to what we were doing at that time.
RD: I think, also, as songwriters, we both knew that we had to work through a whole load of other stuff before we could arrive at a song like Stand On My Feet and an album like More Sinner Than Saint.
But now that it’s done, it’s everything I ever wanted to achieve – but I could never put into words how much this album means to me; I just couldn’t.
RM: Well in a way you don’t have to because the songs, and the lyrics, some of which are clearly personal, or emotional outlets, do that for you.
Again, it’s really interesting you should mention Stand On My Feet as a pivotal song because when I reviewed the album I wrote of that song that it might be the most important song you have ever laid down; I called it the fulcrum point of the album.
RD: That's amazing. That song means so much to me and Steve and it really is the pivotal song, or fulcrum, of the entire album.
SB: That’s very astute of you because it absolutely is. I mentioned that it was meant to be on Believe but by the time it came to More Sinner Than Saint it had been fleshed out further and had developed a real noir feel.
I still listen to it now, even five years on from when we wrote it; it’s my favourite song on the album.
RD: There are other tracks on there that are much more straightforward like opening number Take Me Higher, which is bigger, and more intense, with a delivery I really wanted to give that song, but a song like Stand On My Feet we had to fight a bit for, which made it all the more our baby [laughs].
We had a few people around us saying "Oh I’m not really sure about that song" so it got buffeted around a bit, but we felt so strongly about it.
When we met with Chris Kimsey, who is just such a lovely guy, we said "OK, this is a collection of about twenty songs we’ve put down for the album and this one, Stand On My Feet, is the one that’s causing all the trouble!
Chris listened to them all, came back to me and said of Stand On My Feet "That’s the one; that’s everything you are. You have to stand by this song."
We talked to our American management and let them hear the same twenty songs and they said the same thing – "That’s the song; we love that track; that says everything about you."
So to have that feedback was great. We needed that positive feedback to make us realise that it’s OK to sometimes stamp your foot on the ground and say "No, this is what we want to do, guys.”
SB: Yes, we insisted that track was on the album; it became the touchstone for all the other songs.
RM: You were right to insist; you have to be true to yourselves, artistically, and as songwriters.
And, of course, Chris and the others who were so positive about Stand On My Feet it were spot on; in fact I can’t conceive of this album without that song being on there.
RD: Oh the album wouldn’t exist without it, definitely.
This is your biggest, boldest and strongest work to date.
RD: Thank you very much. For me, this album is everything; it’s more important to me than anything I have ever done in my life, creatively. And I know Steve feels exactly the same – More Sinner Than Saint is what we are both, truly, all about, one hundred percent, from the songwriting to the deliveries to the final mix.
Believe it or not though, it’s not that big a change for us – but there is a pivotal song on the album called Stand On My Feet, which I wrote five years ago.
Steve and I demo’d it, about four years ago, but we weren’t ready to write an album like that, or around a song like that, even although that’s what we wanted to do!
SB: It was actually due to go on Believe; but it was a little too different to what we were doing at that time.
RD: I think, also, as songwriters, we both knew that we had to work through a whole load of other stuff before we could arrive at a song like Stand On My Feet and an album like More Sinner Than Saint.
But now that it’s done, it’s everything I ever wanted to achieve – but I could never put into words how much this album means to me; I just couldn’t.
RM: Well in a way you don’t have to because the songs, and the lyrics, some of which are clearly personal, or emotional outlets, do that for you.
Again, it’s really interesting you should mention Stand On My Feet as a pivotal song because when I reviewed the album I wrote of that song that it might be the most important song you have ever laid down; I called it the fulcrum point of the album.
RD: That's amazing. That song means so much to me and Steve and it really is the pivotal song, or fulcrum, of the entire album.
SB: That’s very astute of you because it absolutely is. I mentioned that it was meant to be on Believe but by the time it came to More Sinner Than Saint it had been fleshed out further and had developed a real noir feel.
I still listen to it now, even five years on from when we wrote it; it’s my favourite song on the album.
RD: There are other tracks on there that are much more straightforward like opening number Take Me Higher, which is bigger, and more intense, with a delivery I really wanted to give that song, but a song like Stand On My Feet we had to fight a bit for, which made it all the more our baby [laughs].
We had a few people around us saying "Oh I’m not really sure about that song" so it got buffeted around a bit, but we felt so strongly about it.
When we met with Chris Kimsey, who is just such a lovely guy, we said "OK, this is a collection of about twenty songs we’ve put down for the album and this one, Stand On My Feet, is the one that’s causing all the trouble!
Chris listened to them all, came back to me and said of Stand On My Feet "That’s the one; that’s everything you are. You have to stand by this song."
We talked to our American management and let them hear the same twenty songs and they said the same thing – "That’s the song; we love that track; that says everything about you."
So to have that feedback was great. We needed that positive feedback to make us realise that it’s OK to sometimes stamp your foot on the ground and say "No, this is what we want to do, guys.”
SB: Yes, we insisted that track was on the album; it became the touchstone for all the other songs.
RM: You were right to insist; you have to be true to yourselves, artistically, and as songwriters.
And, of course, Chris and the others who were so positive about Stand On My Feet it were spot on; in fact I can’t conceive of this album without that song being on there.
RD: Oh the album wouldn’t exist without it, definitely.
Steve Birkett and Rebecca Downes, the perfect partnership of songwriting simpatico, guitar and voice.
RM: The album, as a whole, has a slightly darker edge to it – it’s also rockier offering than before.
Was that an intentional shift or just where you were naturally headed?
RD: It was where we were naturally headed. I like a lot of very heavy, or dark, music – I’ll listen to bands like Five Finger Death Punch… Pantera was always a favourite… I love Depeche Mode’s Violator and the darkness of that album.
So that rockier and darker side was just where we gravitated to and it definitely felt right to do it; it wasn’t a deliberate shift so much as just what naturally happened.
RM: There are a number of elements which coalesced to make More Sinner Than Saint so good – the songwriting and the harder, darker edge to the album are the obvious starting points but having Chris Kimsey in early doors as a sounding board, and adviser on arrangements, also seems to be have been key…
RD: It absolutely was. Chris was brilliant and just so enthusiastic.
It would have been much easier if we had just written twelve songs and said to Chris "Right, that’s the album, what do you think?" [laughs] but as I said earlier we had about twenty songs, so we had to weave our way through a lot of stuff to get to the ones we thought were contenders for what we really wanted to say, and the place we were headed.
I was also worried about the different genres, and this worry and that worry [laughs], and people who were saying, with songs like Stand On My Feet, "Oh it might be a leap too far if you do it" but Chris just said "Forget all that Rebecca, your genre is your voice. And a great song is a great song. Just leave it at that."
I just stopped and thought "OK then" [laughs] because he’s right, you have to forget all that; it doesn’t matter a jot; people will place it how they want to place it anyway.
Working with Chris also gave me and Steve a confidence boost just when we needed it; he was the sounding board not just early on but all the way through.
And he’s not the sort of guy who will say "Oh I love that" to every single song – far from it! [laughs]
RM: Oh I’d imagine Chris would be very honest and open with you…
RD: He was, yes, and when he does say something about a particular song you immediately understand where that comment comes from; you can see and hear exactly what he’s saying.
The trust was there right from the start, as soon as we started to discuss the songs.
SB: And this is a guy who has recorded with the Stones; so you’re going to take notice of what he says!
RM: Another weighty element of More Sinner Than Saint is the number of personal lyrics, or lyrics that are an emotional outlet. Second track on the album, Chains Fall Down, is the introduction to that personal lyricism.
It sounds like, as I mentioned in review, you are unshackling yourself musically, lyrically and emotionally...
RD: It is an unshackling, yes. You said earlier that Believe was well received and that led to the awards, which was great, but I definitely have my detractors – "She’s not blues enough" or I’m not this, or I’m not that, or so and so should have won that particular award because "she’s a proper blues singer."
There have definitely been tensions within the Blues Police as regards what I am and who I am and [pauses]… I’ll be honest with you Ross, it has got me down.
Even some of the people I used to be in bands with and I see around the scene, a few of them have started to be not very nice, which might be because they are still in the same place that I have since left.
So Chains Fall Down is the song that says "This is who we are and what we are."
It means a lot to me and Steve lyrically, and emotionally…
Was that an intentional shift or just where you were naturally headed?
RD: It was where we were naturally headed. I like a lot of very heavy, or dark, music – I’ll listen to bands like Five Finger Death Punch… Pantera was always a favourite… I love Depeche Mode’s Violator and the darkness of that album.
So that rockier and darker side was just where we gravitated to and it definitely felt right to do it; it wasn’t a deliberate shift so much as just what naturally happened.
RM: There are a number of elements which coalesced to make More Sinner Than Saint so good – the songwriting and the harder, darker edge to the album are the obvious starting points but having Chris Kimsey in early doors as a sounding board, and adviser on arrangements, also seems to be have been key…
RD: It absolutely was. Chris was brilliant and just so enthusiastic.
It would have been much easier if we had just written twelve songs and said to Chris "Right, that’s the album, what do you think?" [laughs] but as I said earlier we had about twenty songs, so we had to weave our way through a lot of stuff to get to the ones we thought were contenders for what we really wanted to say, and the place we were headed.
I was also worried about the different genres, and this worry and that worry [laughs], and people who were saying, with songs like Stand On My Feet, "Oh it might be a leap too far if you do it" but Chris just said "Forget all that Rebecca, your genre is your voice. And a great song is a great song. Just leave it at that."
I just stopped and thought "OK then" [laughs] because he’s right, you have to forget all that; it doesn’t matter a jot; people will place it how they want to place it anyway.
Working with Chris also gave me and Steve a confidence boost just when we needed it; he was the sounding board not just early on but all the way through.
And he’s not the sort of guy who will say "Oh I love that" to every single song – far from it! [laughs]
RM: Oh I’d imagine Chris would be very honest and open with you…
RD: He was, yes, and when he does say something about a particular song you immediately understand where that comment comes from; you can see and hear exactly what he’s saying.
The trust was there right from the start, as soon as we started to discuss the songs.
SB: And this is a guy who has recorded with the Stones; so you’re going to take notice of what he says!
RM: Another weighty element of More Sinner Than Saint is the number of personal lyrics, or lyrics that are an emotional outlet. Second track on the album, Chains Fall Down, is the introduction to that personal lyricism.
It sounds like, as I mentioned in review, you are unshackling yourself musically, lyrically and emotionally...
RD: It is an unshackling, yes. You said earlier that Believe was well received and that led to the awards, which was great, but I definitely have my detractors – "She’s not blues enough" or I’m not this, or I’m not that, or so and so should have won that particular award because "she’s a proper blues singer."
There have definitely been tensions within the Blues Police as regards what I am and who I am and [pauses]… I’ll be honest with you Ross, it has got me down.
Even some of the people I used to be in bands with and I see around the scene, a few of them have started to be not very nice, which might be because they are still in the same place that I have since left.
So Chains Fall Down is the song that says "This is who we are and what we are."
It means a lot to me and Steve lyrically, and emotionally…
RM: Chains Fall Down isn’t the only emotional outlet number. The piano building ballad Screaming Your Name comes across, lyrically, as a powerful catharsis – in fact it’s a song you could hear Adele covering...
RD: Yes, absolutely. In fact there’s a couple of songs on there that a few people have immediately said "Adele" or compared them to Adele.
But then a song can be covered in any number of ways and if it’s a decent song it can transcend beyond its original form.
In fact, just the other day I was doing a song by Linkin Park with a student of mine and we were doing it as a ballad – and singing it like it was a proper all out, full-on big hair ballad at that [laughs] but it worked tremendously well!
But to go back to your Adele comment yeah, I totally get that and to hear that is just brilliant.
RM: I would guess the other song getting the Adele references is the title track, More Sinner Than Saint. That’s another very powerful and atmospheric piece, which builds from a saintly and repeating organ refrain to a more sinful and far bigger rock ballad…
RD: We’re doing that one live; when we perform it has an even heavier feel.
What I love about that song is its dark, introspective opening verses, where you don’t really know what’s going to happen and then, through Bill Drescher’s wonderful mix and a very, very large chorus it goes somewhere else!
And yes, that little keyboard figure that repeats all the way through is wonderful; we use that sort of repeating theme on a couple of the songs.
RM: I’m glad you mentioned Bill Drescher because I wanted to give mention to his five song mixes and Chris Childs, of Thunder, who mixed the other seven tracks.
I have to be honest, even although I have a list of who mixed what, I struggled to tell them apart; it’s a perfect sounding mix and match, pun intended…
RD: Chris did a great job of matching Bill’s mixes and they were both really easy people to work with as well, which was great.
Bill has this great catalogue of hits and movie soundtrack work – the wall of the room next door to his studio is lined with gold discs – and here he is doing More Sinner Than Saint!
I was at his home studio, with our American management, to hear the mixes, and I just burst out crying.
I said to him "I always thought we could sound like that and now I know we can."
SB: Yes, it was the sound we had in our heads all along, and he came up with it almost straight away.
We had actually done a load of mixes, of all the tracks, with Sheena Sear down at Mark’s studio.
Sheena added a few little extra bits to Stand on My Feet and there was some extra strings from Rick Benton, who is a fantastic keyboard player.
And they all were great, to be honest.
But when we sent the songs to our American management, who as Becks mentioned earlier also picked out Stand On My Feet as a really great song, they said "Let’s pass it to Bill."
We got his mix back and it was "Oh, wow." It just lifted it to a whole different level, as did all his mixes.
And your'e right about the Bill and Chris mixes; you can’t really tell the difference – I sort of can now, because I recognise Bill’s go-to vocal sound, he has a reverb sound that’s all of his own.
But that’s about it because, generally, you just cannot tell who did what; they gel so well together.
It's funny, because in one way we were frustrated that the album took so long – two years – but it’s a good job it did take that long otherwise we maybe wouldn’t have had those mixes and those helpful conversations.
That little bit of patience meant the guys over in the States came on board and we can now say "Yeah, we did the right thing."
RM: Another strength of More Sinner Than Saint is Steve’s what-the-song-needs guitar work.
In other words Steve with guitar is like you with a microphone – it’s about delivering what the song needs in terms of phrasing or melody or refrain, not about going off on one for ego or overblown effect…
RD: Those comments about guitar and voice are very much what Steve and I are all about – in fact a lot of the times when we’re writing or recording we’ll both sing what the solo should be!
It’s like having an idea in your head for something that could possibly be a vocal line but takes on the line of the guitar instead.
RM: Or vice versa.
RD: Exactly. For me, a guitar solo should only be there if it’s required; it should never be "Well, hang on a minute, we’ve had a couple of choruses now we need to bung in a guitar solo."
For Steve and me it’s always been a case of is a solo required here and if it is required, what shape should it take?
SB: Also, I tend to write guitar parts not guitar solos. I try to make it about the hooks; all songs have, or should have, hooks, and then mini-hooks you can pick up on as a listener.
I’m not a shredder and wouldn’t be interested in doing anything like that; and to be honest I’m incapable of doing it! So I have to do what fits the song and find the sound that fits in with the song.
People have said to me in the past "What’s your particular guitar tone?" and I say "I don’t have one really, I just use whatever fits the song!"
That’s also why I have four guitars! [laughs] When people ask about them I say "Well, that one’s tuned to this, this one’s tuned to that, this other one gives me that sound and that last one gives me my other sound [loud laughter].
RD: It’s as you said; it’s all about what the song needs and not what I necessarily think my vocal needs to sound like and not what Steve thinks might best show off his guitar skills.
As soon as you lose sight of that and you get egos involved – you know, the Mariah Carey run-on vocal approach [laughter], you’re in trouble.
RM: Oh, please do not start me on Miss Carey and her everything including the kitchen sink vocal histrionics.
RD: [laughs] So you know exactly what I mean – just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!
RM: We've been talking primarily about the more emotional or darker songs om More Sinner Than Saint but there are some great, muscly rock numbers on there too, like Hurts – and with Big Sky you might just have delivered the most uplifting, feel-good melodic blues rock number of the year…
RD: [shouts] Yay! Thank you so much! I think it might also be the first happy song I’ve ever written! [laughter]
That’s amazing to hear though, because the album has two different, or separate, sorts of songs, which hopefully mirror each other – there’s the dramatic, more emotional songs but we also have the rockers coming through. Because, you know, you need to rock now and then don’t you?
RM: You do indeed. And you do again on If I Go to Sleep, a great little number that has more light and shade than your average "whoa-oh" song plus a great guitar solo from guest player Alan Nimmo.
You also have Magnum’s Tony Clarkin play on Breathe Out; Alan and Tony ply their trades in different musical genres but they are the perfect six-string foils for those songs…
RD: They are, but I really didn’t expect either of them to say yes!
I said to Alan, in passing, "Look, you will probably say no to this and if you do I will totally understand but…" and he jumped in to say "You want me to play a solo on one of your songs, don't you?" [laughs]
"That’ll be [mimics Scottish accent] nae problem, doll!" [laughter]
RM: Wow; it's like he just walked in to the room....
RD: [Laughs] When Alan sent that solo over it was obvious he had taken a lot of time over it; it wasn’t a five minute job. It was just as you and I have been talking about, there was a clear understanding of what was required; it was a guitarist knowing what the song needed.
I can actually sing that solo; I know it inside out, it’s that memorable.
And the release at the start when he just goes in to it? Ridiculously good. That man is bloody amazing!
RD: Yes, absolutely. In fact there’s a couple of songs on there that a few people have immediately said "Adele" or compared them to Adele.
But then a song can be covered in any number of ways and if it’s a decent song it can transcend beyond its original form.
In fact, just the other day I was doing a song by Linkin Park with a student of mine and we were doing it as a ballad – and singing it like it was a proper all out, full-on big hair ballad at that [laughs] but it worked tremendously well!
But to go back to your Adele comment yeah, I totally get that and to hear that is just brilliant.
RM: I would guess the other song getting the Adele references is the title track, More Sinner Than Saint. That’s another very powerful and atmospheric piece, which builds from a saintly and repeating organ refrain to a more sinful and far bigger rock ballad…
RD: We’re doing that one live; when we perform it has an even heavier feel.
What I love about that song is its dark, introspective opening verses, where you don’t really know what’s going to happen and then, through Bill Drescher’s wonderful mix and a very, very large chorus it goes somewhere else!
And yes, that little keyboard figure that repeats all the way through is wonderful; we use that sort of repeating theme on a couple of the songs.
RM: I’m glad you mentioned Bill Drescher because I wanted to give mention to his five song mixes and Chris Childs, of Thunder, who mixed the other seven tracks.
I have to be honest, even although I have a list of who mixed what, I struggled to tell them apart; it’s a perfect sounding mix and match, pun intended…
RD: Chris did a great job of matching Bill’s mixes and they were both really easy people to work with as well, which was great.
Bill has this great catalogue of hits and movie soundtrack work – the wall of the room next door to his studio is lined with gold discs – and here he is doing More Sinner Than Saint!
I was at his home studio, with our American management, to hear the mixes, and I just burst out crying.
I said to him "I always thought we could sound like that and now I know we can."
SB: Yes, it was the sound we had in our heads all along, and he came up with it almost straight away.
We had actually done a load of mixes, of all the tracks, with Sheena Sear down at Mark’s studio.
Sheena added a few little extra bits to Stand on My Feet and there was some extra strings from Rick Benton, who is a fantastic keyboard player.
And they all were great, to be honest.
But when we sent the songs to our American management, who as Becks mentioned earlier also picked out Stand On My Feet as a really great song, they said "Let’s pass it to Bill."
We got his mix back and it was "Oh, wow." It just lifted it to a whole different level, as did all his mixes.
And your'e right about the Bill and Chris mixes; you can’t really tell the difference – I sort of can now, because I recognise Bill’s go-to vocal sound, he has a reverb sound that’s all of his own.
But that’s about it because, generally, you just cannot tell who did what; they gel so well together.
It's funny, because in one way we were frustrated that the album took so long – two years – but it’s a good job it did take that long otherwise we maybe wouldn’t have had those mixes and those helpful conversations.
That little bit of patience meant the guys over in the States came on board and we can now say "Yeah, we did the right thing."
RM: Another strength of More Sinner Than Saint is Steve’s what-the-song-needs guitar work.
In other words Steve with guitar is like you with a microphone – it’s about delivering what the song needs in terms of phrasing or melody or refrain, not about going off on one for ego or overblown effect…
RD: Those comments about guitar and voice are very much what Steve and I are all about – in fact a lot of the times when we’re writing or recording we’ll both sing what the solo should be!
It’s like having an idea in your head for something that could possibly be a vocal line but takes on the line of the guitar instead.
RM: Or vice versa.
RD: Exactly. For me, a guitar solo should only be there if it’s required; it should never be "Well, hang on a minute, we’ve had a couple of choruses now we need to bung in a guitar solo."
For Steve and me it’s always been a case of is a solo required here and if it is required, what shape should it take?
SB: Also, I tend to write guitar parts not guitar solos. I try to make it about the hooks; all songs have, or should have, hooks, and then mini-hooks you can pick up on as a listener.
I’m not a shredder and wouldn’t be interested in doing anything like that; and to be honest I’m incapable of doing it! So I have to do what fits the song and find the sound that fits in with the song.
People have said to me in the past "What’s your particular guitar tone?" and I say "I don’t have one really, I just use whatever fits the song!"
That’s also why I have four guitars! [laughs] When people ask about them I say "Well, that one’s tuned to this, this one’s tuned to that, this other one gives me that sound and that last one gives me my other sound [loud laughter].
RD: It’s as you said; it’s all about what the song needs and not what I necessarily think my vocal needs to sound like and not what Steve thinks might best show off his guitar skills.
As soon as you lose sight of that and you get egos involved – you know, the Mariah Carey run-on vocal approach [laughter], you’re in trouble.
RM: Oh, please do not start me on Miss Carey and her everything including the kitchen sink vocal histrionics.
RD: [laughs] So you know exactly what I mean – just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!
RM: We've been talking primarily about the more emotional or darker songs om More Sinner Than Saint but there are some great, muscly rock numbers on there too, like Hurts – and with Big Sky you might just have delivered the most uplifting, feel-good melodic blues rock number of the year…
RD: [shouts] Yay! Thank you so much! I think it might also be the first happy song I’ve ever written! [laughter]
That’s amazing to hear though, because the album has two different, or separate, sorts of songs, which hopefully mirror each other – there’s the dramatic, more emotional songs but we also have the rockers coming through. Because, you know, you need to rock now and then don’t you?
RM: You do indeed. And you do again on If I Go to Sleep, a great little number that has more light and shade than your average "whoa-oh" song plus a great guitar solo from guest player Alan Nimmo.
You also have Magnum’s Tony Clarkin play on Breathe Out; Alan and Tony ply their trades in different musical genres but they are the perfect six-string foils for those songs…
RD: They are, but I really didn’t expect either of them to say yes!
I said to Alan, in passing, "Look, you will probably say no to this and if you do I will totally understand but…" and he jumped in to say "You want me to play a solo on one of your songs, don't you?" [laughs]
"That’ll be [mimics Scottish accent] nae problem, doll!" [laughter]
RM: Wow; it's like he just walked in to the room....
RD: [Laughs] When Alan sent that solo over it was obvious he had taken a lot of time over it; it wasn’t a five minute job. It was just as you and I have been talking about, there was a clear understanding of what was required; it was a guitarist knowing what the song needed.
I can actually sing that solo; I know it inside out, it’s that memorable.
And the release at the start when he just goes in to it? Ridiculously good. That man is bloody amazing!
RM: We’ve mentioned Steve’s skills as a songwriter and intelligent, song first guitar player but we also get to hear him share lead vocals with you on Wave Them Goodbye. That’s a great little Memphis affected rock 'n' blues number.
RD: It’s also as song we’re looking to do acoustically; it works really well as an acoustic number.
Funnily enough so does More Sinner Than Saint, which is one song you would never think would work acoustically. We did an acoustic version recently and we thought "Bloody hell, that sounds really good!"
RM: Of course that’s another string to your bow – or rather acoustic guitar – because you do also do acoustic sets…
RD: We do, yes, and in fact we’d like to do more because we both really love doing them.
Being so exposed, as a singer, I actually really enjoy too; it’s a different type of challenge.
RM: Having discussed More Sinner Than Saint at length, the obvious wrap-up is to ask about your hopes for it and the Rebecca Downes Band.
You and I both know in this digital streaming day and very different business model age how hard it is to get to the next level, even for the most talented of artists with outstanding product – but, in an ideal world, where do you see, or hope to see, the Rebecca Downes Band…
RD: In an ideal world we would like to be at the point where King King are; not worrying about ticket sales and able to expand our audience. We also have an American management team who are working hard for us so we will see where that goes.
For me, at a base level, I just want to make this into something that I can earn a living off; it’s that simple.
Steve and I have given everything to this, it’s our entire world; we don’t take a penny, we put it all back in.
So, it would be great, and it would mean success to me, if we were able to turn this into something that sells, say, between five and eight hundred tickets for a show.
That way we would be touching a lot of people and know we don’t have to worry about finances.
As regards More Sinner Than Saint… is this album do or die? It might well be.
Would I give it up altogether – of course I wouldn’t – but without a major injection of cash, or getting to that next level you mentioned, I don’t know how we could ever follow something like More Sinner Than Saint.
But I do very much hope we get some traction on this album; it doesn’t have to be a lot, it just has to be enough to push it around the corner.
We also got more pre-sales on this album than we’ve ever had before, so that was a good sign.
This is not about "Oh, I want to be famous!" or anything like that; it really is as simple as reaching more people, being able to pay the musicians more, making everyone involved with the Rebecca Downes Band a little more secure and getting my own security back – from a very young age I always had financial independence but I don’t have that at the moment; I gave up everything for this.
RM: In reply I can only say you have a very smart head on your shoulders and you’re on this path for the right reasons – it’s not about, as you mentioned, looking to be famous or massaging an ego, it’s about touching people with your music but touching enough people to recoup on all the hard work and personal sacrifices.
With More Sinner Than Saint you clearly have the product to make that achievable; we just have to hope that next step becomes a reality, because there’s no question you deserve it.
RD: Thank you so much. I also want to say that I was really interested to hear what you would make of the album because I respect your opinion. To hear you rate it so highly, and get what it means to me and Steve, was great.
I know I’ve already said how important More Sinner Than Saint is to me but, really, you can’t get closer to me than this album.
RM: And that comes through loud and clear – the personal sacrifices you have made, the emotional content, that’s all part of More Sinner Than Saint; it's a passionwork.
RD: Thank you. We’re writing again now and have a few new songs roughed out but my whole life has been leading to More Sinner Than Saint. I know that sounds dramatic but recording this album has been dramatic!
I could not be prouder of this album.
Ross Muir
Muirsical Conversation with Rebecca Downes (and Steve Birkett)
May 2019
Click here for FabricationsHQ's Feature Review of More Sinner Than Saint
Rebecca Downes Official Website: https://www.rebeccadownes.com/
Photo Credits: Mark Roberts (top image); Mal Whichelow (live images)
RD: It’s also as song we’re looking to do acoustically; it works really well as an acoustic number.
Funnily enough so does More Sinner Than Saint, which is one song you would never think would work acoustically. We did an acoustic version recently and we thought "Bloody hell, that sounds really good!"
RM: Of course that’s another string to your bow – or rather acoustic guitar – because you do also do acoustic sets…
RD: We do, yes, and in fact we’d like to do more because we both really love doing them.
Being so exposed, as a singer, I actually really enjoy too; it’s a different type of challenge.
RM: Having discussed More Sinner Than Saint at length, the obvious wrap-up is to ask about your hopes for it and the Rebecca Downes Band.
You and I both know in this digital streaming day and very different business model age how hard it is to get to the next level, even for the most talented of artists with outstanding product – but, in an ideal world, where do you see, or hope to see, the Rebecca Downes Band…
RD: In an ideal world we would like to be at the point where King King are; not worrying about ticket sales and able to expand our audience. We also have an American management team who are working hard for us so we will see where that goes.
For me, at a base level, I just want to make this into something that I can earn a living off; it’s that simple.
Steve and I have given everything to this, it’s our entire world; we don’t take a penny, we put it all back in.
So, it would be great, and it would mean success to me, if we were able to turn this into something that sells, say, between five and eight hundred tickets for a show.
That way we would be touching a lot of people and know we don’t have to worry about finances.
As regards More Sinner Than Saint… is this album do or die? It might well be.
Would I give it up altogether – of course I wouldn’t – but without a major injection of cash, or getting to that next level you mentioned, I don’t know how we could ever follow something like More Sinner Than Saint.
But I do very much hope we get some traction on this album; it doesn’t have to be a lot, it just has to be enough to push it around the corner.
We also got more pre-sales on this album than we’ve ever had before, so that was a good sign.
This is not about "Oh, I want to be famous!" or anything like that; it really is as simple as reaching more people, being able to pay the musicians more, making everyone involved with the Rebecca Downes Band a little more secure and getting my own security back – from a very young age I always had financial independence but I don’t have that at the moment; I gave up everything for this.
RM: In reply I can only say you have a very smart head on your shoulders and you’re on this path for the right reasons – it’s not about, as you mentioned, looking to be famous or massaging an ego, it’s about touching people with your music but touching enough people to recoup on all the hard work and personal sacrifices.
With More Sinner Than Saint you clearly have the product to make that achievable; we just have to hope that next step becomes a reality, because there’s no question you deserve it.
RD: Thank you so much. I also want to say that I was really interested to hear what you would make of the album because I respect your opinion. To hear you rate it so highly, and get what it means to me and Steve, was great.
I know I’ve already said how important More Sinner Than Saint is to me but, really, you can’t get closer to me than this album.
RM: And that comes through loud and clear – the personal sacrifices you have made, the emotional content, that’s all part of More Sinner Than Saint; it's a passionwork.
RD: Thank you. We’re writing again now and have a few new songs roughed out but my whole life has been leading to More Sinner Than Saint. I know that sounds dramatic but recording this album has been dramatic!
I could not be prouder of this album.
Ross Muir
Muirsical Conversation with Rebecca Downes (and Steve Birkett)
May 2019
Click here for FabricationsHQ's Feature Review of More Sinner Than Saint
Rebecca Downes Official Website: https://www.rebeccadownes.com/
Photo Credits: Mark Roberts (top image); Mal Whichelow (live images)