Having a Devil of a good time...
Muirsical Conversation with John Lawton
Muirsical Conversation with John Lawton

John Lawton isn't just one of the nicest guys in rock and roll – he's also one of the most and consistent and versatile singers performing across the hard rock and classic, harmonic pop spectrum.
Born in Halifax, West Yorkshire but spending most of his early music career in Germany, John Lawton was part of the successful vocal ensemble the Les Humphries Singers while also fronting one of the most creative rock bands of the 70s, Lucifer’s Friend.
Lucifer’s Friend recorded six of their eight albums with John Lawton (plus an album under the Lucifer’s Friend II moniker in 1994) but it’s the singer’s shorter stint with Uriah Heep that made the bigger impact on the global rock map.
John Lawton joined the legendary British rock outfit in 1976 before departing at the end of 1979; he recorded three studio albums with the band with a fourth recorded almost to completion (but never officially released).
Since leaving Uriah Heep John Lawton has enjoyed a long and varied solo career that continues to this day; he has recorded more than a dozen solo, collaborative or other-band studio and live albums.
In August 2014, nearly three and a half decades on from the last Lucifer’s Friend album Mean Machine, John Lawton announced that the band – featuring original members Peter Hesslein, Dieter Horns and Lawton along with drummer Stephan Eggert and Lucifer’s Friend II keyboard player Jogi Wichmann – would reunite to perform a number of live dates in 2015.
John Lawton spoke to FabricationsHQ to talk about the reunion, the Lucifer’s Friend anthology album Awakening, his time with Uriah Heep (including the controversial fan-splitting "lost" album) and some of the more recent projects the singer has been involved with...
Ross Muir: Immediately before we got together for this chat John I was thinking to myself "it must be a good couple of years since we spoke." Turns out that "couple of years" was 2008 and the OTR band project. Frightening how time moves quicker than we expect...
John Lawton: It is, isn’t it? Much too frightening actually!
RM: Well if that’s a scary thought how about this…
You and guitarist Peter Hesslein worked together in Lucifer’s Friend II – and that was back in 1994 – but we have to go back… drum roll please… thirty four years for the last hurrah of Lucifer’s Friend and the Mean Machine album. How did a Lucifer’s Friend reunion materialise after all these years?
JL: Well to be quite honest with you Ross we have had a few enquiries over the years to do it, but we’ve always said "thanks, but let’s leave the memories."
But around the middle of 2014 I got an offer from an American agency; they had been representing a couple of bands who were covering some Lucifer’s Friend stuff for soundtracks to Skateboard videos and Surfing videos, which have become incredibly popular.
The Agency asked if we would like to come over to the States and do some gigs and I replied to say "this might be an idea but I’ll have to put it to the guys and see what they have to say."
I put it forward and the guys said "well, everyone else is doing our stuff so maybe we should get out there and do it ourselves."
Then I got a message from one of the guys who organises the Sweden Rock Festival; he had heard about the possible reunion and was asking if we would be interested in reforming for Sweden Rock.
So I put that offer to the guys and this time they said "yeah, why the hell not? The time is obviously right!"
And I think that, also, it’s been such a long time that we wanted to check it out and see if we can still cut it, you know? So that’s how it all started!
RM: Interesting story and the Sweden Rock Festival is obviously a great platform to get yourselves back out there…
JL: Absolutely! I did that festival three of four years ago with Ken Hensley and it was great.
It was well organised, we met lovely people over there and I stayed friends with Johannes Lindström, one of the festival’s organisers. In fact Johannes was the guy that put the offer to me and I think that was the kick up the arse we needed, to be quite frank with you! [laughs]
RM: Well I for one am delighted you got your arse kicked because not only was I an uber-fan of Lucifer’s Friend back in the day the reunion comes complete with an album called Awakening, an anthology that features ten remastered back catalogue tracks plus some new material.
Let’s start with the ten classic tracks. How did you go about choosing them?
JL: We spoke about it as a band first of all and the consensus was we should check on the Internet and see what tracks got the most plays or clicks. And between the three of us – Peter Hesslein, Dieter Horns and me – we came up with the songs that feature on the album.
But they were also the tracks with the most Internet clicks over a given period of time, because we thought "well, if that’s what people really want to hear then we have to consider them."
And then for the running order we put the tracks on pretty much chronologically, starting with Ride The Sky from our first album and working through from there.
Mind you, to be honest, if we had picked everything that the fans wanted to hear the compilation CD would have been at least a couple of hours long [laughs] – and that’s just too long for a reintroduction album.
So we picked ten tracks out of that larger selection that we thought people would like to hear remastered but also ten tracks that we can actually play live – if we’re going to go out and play we are obviously going to play songs from the album and we have to be able to deliver. That’s the reasoning behind the track selection.
RM: Makes perfect sense and you’re absolutely right to have the final word on the track selection because if you asked each fan for their song choice you would get huge variation over a ten track listing.
For example I would love to have seen Spanish Galleon on Awakening but you’re not likely to be reproducing that lengthy, full ensemble epic on stage.
JL: Exactly, and that was the other problem. If we had chosen to put Spanish Galleon on the album then people would be saying "why isn’t that in the live set?"
Well, because we don’t have a string section and we don’t have a brass section for a start, so that would make it a little bit more difficult! [laughs]
For Awakening we really did want to keep it tied down to the tracks we knew we could actually deliver as the five-piece.
RM: And the ten tracks selected dovetail well with the four new tracks that feature on the album's bonus CD.
For example Pray is a song that captures the sonic essence of what Lucifer’s Friend were all about; it also brings that sound in to the 21st century…
JL: Pray was one of three tracks that Peter Hesslein brought to the band.
Peter had initially said to me "I’ve got some stuff here you might like; have a listen and see what you think." He sent quite a few tracks over and while a lot of them were not worth pursuing – they were very good but they were not very good for Lucifer’s Friend – I did pick up on Pray, Did You Ever and This Road.
I thought those three tracks really stood out as songs we could do something with.
Now, OK, This Road is a little off-the-wall for Lucifer’s Friend but I did like the track…
RM: It’s the grower of the four, no question. I love the funky little feel behind the main beat of the song.
JL: That’s why I thought we should cover that track; I wanted to record that one to see how it turned out.
And I think it turned out pretty good but everybody seems to be picking up on Pray and Riding High, which is the song Dieter Horns brought to the band.
Dieter also sent me a lot of material and I picked that track out because I thought it had the most potential.
In fact I think the four songs we put on Awakening are all pretty good and pretty much, as you said, Lucifer’s Friend for the 21st century.
RM: I’m glad you mentioned Dieter because the remastering really pulls out Dieter’s bass work – on Ride The Sky for example there’s a real, crisp punch to the bass.
You mentioned the band getting the kick up the arse it needed earlier but I think the material, through the remasters, has also got the sonic kick up the arse it both needed and deserved…
JL: When you go back to the earliest albums, the 1970 to 1972 material, there’s not a great deal you can do when you remaster; there are limitations.
But we sent all ten original tracks over to a guy called Mike Petrini in Boston and I have to say I think he has done a really good job, especially on the four 1970 debut album tracks.
Mike worked hard on it, I appreciated that and it’s been well received.
When we first started playing together I was thinking "well hang on a minute, we already have a great lead guitarist in Peter Hesslein, so why is Dieter Horns being a second lead guitarist on bass?" [laughs]
But, I have to say, he turned out to be one of the best – and you’ll be pleased to hear that when we rehearsed a few months ago and played together for the first time after all those years, it was clear he hasn’t lost it!
RM: Great to hear; as are the remastered versions of the tracks.
The song choice and chronological album order also helps explain a phrase that goes back to Lucifer’s Friend’s original album run and your own time with the band – "every album is different."
While each album had that Lucifer’s Friend "sound" each album also carried its own dynamic – was that just where you were, musically, at each given time?
JL: You know Ross we have been asked that so many times and I can only relate back to what I’ve already said in answer to that question – we never, consciously, said "for this album we’re going to head in this direction" or "on this album we’re going to sound like this" or anything like that – it really was just the way the songs turned out.
Now, OK, if you were to hear the original stuff Peter Hesslein did, where he’s just strumming on acoustic guitar and la la-ing the melody and adding the occasional word, it may have got to the point where I thought "oh I don’t know about this one." But once the guys got in to the studio with the material and I went in a couple of days later to listen to what the band had come up with, I would find myself saying "I really like what they’re doing with this; this stuff is terrific!"
But there was never any conscious decision made where we said "right, we’re going to make a rock album this time" it really was just the way it turned out.
For example with Mind Exploding everybody was saying "ah, this time you have decided to go back to being a rock band" but we never went back; it was just the way that particular set of songs fell together.
RM: No, you certainly never went back, you continually evolved; you really were one of the most creative rock bands of the 70s.
I’m glad you mentioned Mind Exploding because to this day that’s one of my all-time-favourite albums.
We all love to do favourite album lists, especially music writers or music critics, and my own, which includes artists as musically diverse and creative as Todd Rundgren and Pat Metheny, includes Mind Exploding.
JL: Wow; thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying that.
RM: It just clicked with me. It worked on every level, had a style and dynamic like very few other mid-70s rock albums – piano led or piano arranged numbers for example – and featured extremely creative writing from straight ahead rock to longer-form pieces.
JL: To be honest with you Banquet is my absolute favourite album; I loved making that album and enjoyed every minute of singing it and all the stuff that went along with its recording.
But, second on that list for me is Mind Exploding – and we have to keep two or three songs in the live set from that album because we have had so many people saying "oh you can’t go back out and do a show without Moonshine Rider in the set – that has to be in there!"
Born in Halifax, West Yorkshire but spending most of his early music career in Germany, John Lawton was part of the successful vocal ensemble the Les Humphries Singers while also fronting one of the most creative rock bands of the 70s, Lucifer’s Friend.
Lucifer’s Friend recorded six of their eight albums with John Lawton (plus an album under the Lucifer’s Friend II moniker in 1994) but it’s the singer’s shorter stint with Uriah Heep that made the bigger impact on the global rock map.
John Lawton joined the legendary British rock outfit in 1976 before departing at the end of 1979; he recorded three studio albums with the band with a fourth recorded almost to completion (but never officially released).
Since leaving Uriah Heep John Lawton has enjoyed a long and varied solo career that continues to this day; he has recorded more than a dozen solo, collaborative or other-band studio and live albums.
In August 2014, nearly three and a half decades on from the last Lucifer’s Friend album Mean Machine, John Lawton announced that the band – featuring original members Peter Hesslein, Dieter Horns and Lawton along with drummer Stephan Eggert and Lucifer’s Friend II keyboard player Jogi Wichmann – would reunite to perform a number of live dates in 2015.
John Lawton spoke to FabricationsHQ to talk about the reunion, the Lucifer’s Friend anthology album Awakening, his time with Uriah Heep (including the controversial fan-splitting "lost" album) and some of the more recent projects the singer has been involved with...
Ross Muir: Immediately before we got together for this chat John I was thinking to myself "it must be a good couple of years since we spoke." Turns out that "couple of years" was 2008 and the OTR band project. Frightening how time moves quicker than we expect...
John Lawton: It is, isn’t it? Much too frightening actually!
RM: Well if that’s a scary thought how about this…
You and guitarist Peter Hesslein worked together in Lucifer’s Friend II – and that was back in 1994 – but we have to go back… drum roll please… thirty four years for the last hurrah of Lucifer’s Friend and the Mean Machine album. How did a Lucifer’s Friend reunion materialise after all these years?
JL: Well to be quite honest with you Ross we have had a few enquiries over the years to do it, but we’ve always said "thanks, but let’s leave the memories."
But around the middle of 2014 I got an offer from an American agency; they had been representing a couple of bands who were covering some Lucifer’s Friend stuff for soundtracks to Skateboard videos and Surfing videos, which have become incredibly popular.
The Agency asked if we would like to come over to the States and do some gigs and I replied to say "this might be an idea but I’ll have to put it to the guys and see what they have to say."
I put it forward and the guys said "well, everyone else is doing our stuff so maybe we should get out there and do it ourselves."
Then I got a message from one of the guys who organises the Sweden Rock Festival; he had heard about the possible reunion and was asking if we would be interested in reforming for Sweden Rock.
So I put that offer to the guys and this time they said "yeah, why the hell not? The time is obviously right!"
And I think that, also, it’s been such a long time that we wanted to check it out and see if we can still cut it, you know? So that’s how it all started!
RM: Interesting story and the Sweden Rock Festival is obviously a great platform to get yourselves back out there…
JL: Absolutely! I did that festival three of four years ago with Ken Hensley and it was great.
It was well organised, we met lovely people over there and I stayed friends with Johannes Lindström, one of the festival’s organisers. In fact Johannes was the guy that put the offer to me and I think that was the kick up the arse we needed, to be quite frank with you! [laughs]
RM: Well I for one am delighted you got your arse kicked because not only was I an uber-fan of Lucifer’s Friend back in the day the reunion comes complete with an album called Awakening, an anthology that features ten remastered back catalogue tracks plus some new material.
Let’s start with the ten classic tracks. How did you go about choosing them?
JL: We spoke about it as a band first of all and the consensus was we should check on the Internet and see what tracks got the most plays or clicks. And between the three of us – Peter Hesslein, Dieter Horns and me – we came up with the songs that feature on the album.
But they were also the tracks with the most Internet clicks over a given period of time, because we thought "well, if that’s what people really want to hear then we have to consider them."
And then for the running order we put the tracks on pretty much chronologically, starting with Ride The Sky from our first album and working through from there.
Mind you, to be honest, if we had picked everything that the fans wanted to hear the compilation CD would have been at least a couple of hours long [laughs] – and that’s just too long for a reintroduction album.
So we picked ten tracks out of that larger selection that we thought people would like to hear remastered but also ten tracks that we can actually play live – if we’re going to go out and play we are obviously going to play songs from the album and we have to be able to deliver. That’s the reasoning behind the track selection.
RM: Makes perfect sense and you’re absolutely right to have the final word on the track selection because if you asked each fan for their song choice you would get huge variation over a ten track listing.
For example I would love to have seen Spanish Galleon on Awakening but you’re not likely to be reproducing that lengthy, full ensemble epic on stage.
JL: Exactly, and that was the other problem. If we had chosen to put Spanish Galleon on the album then people would be saying "why isn’t that in the live set?"
Well, because we don’t have a string section and we don’t have a brass section for a start, so that would make it a little bit more difficult! [laughs]
For Awakening we really did want to keep it tied down to the tracks we knew we could actually deliver as the five-piece.
RM: And the ten tracks selected dovetail well with the four new tracks that feature on the album's bonus CD.
For example Pray is a song that captures the sonic essence of what Lucifer’s Friend were all about; it also brings that sound in to the 21st century…
JL: Pray was one of three tracks that Peter Hesslein brought to the band.
Peter had initially said to me "I’ve got some stuff here you might like; have a listen and see what you think." He sent quite a few tracks over and while a lot of them were not worth pursuing – they were very good but they were not very good for Lucifer’s Friend – I did pick up on Pray, Did You Ever and This Road.
I thought those three tracks really stood out as songs we could do something with.
Now, OK, This Road is a little off-the-wall for Lucifer’s Friend but I did like the track…
RM: It’s the grower of the four, no question. I love the funky little feel behind the main beat of the song.
JL: That’s why I thought we should cover that track; I wanted to record that one to see how it turned out.
And I think it turned out pretty good but everybody seems to be picking up on Pray and Riding High, which is the song Dieter Horns brought to the band.
Dieter also sent me a lot of material and I picked that track out because I thought it had the most potential.
In fact I think the four songs we put on Awakening are all pretty good and pretty much, as you said, Lucifer’s Friend for the 21st century.
RM: I’m glad you mentioned Dieter because the remastering really pulls out Dieter’s bass work – on Ride The Sky for example there’s a real, crisp punch to the bass.
You mentioned the band getting the kick up the arse it needed earlier but I think the material, through the remasters, has also got the sonic kick up the arse it both needed and deserved…
JL: When you go back to the earliest albums, the 1970 to 1972 material, there’s not a great deal you can do when you remaster; there are limitations.
But we sent all ten original tracks over to a guy called Mike Petrini in Boston and I have to say I think he has done a really good job, especially on the four 1970 debut album tracks.
Mike worked hard on it, I appreciated that and it’s been well received.
When we first started playing together I was thinking "well hang on a minute, we already have a great lead guitarist in Peter Hesslein, so why is Dieter Horns being a second lead guitarist on bass?" [laughs]
But, I have to say, he turned out to be one of the best – and you’ll be pleased to hear that when we rehearsed a few months ago and played together for the first time after all those years, it was clear he hasn’t lost it!
RM: Great to hear; as are the remastered versions of the tracks.
The song choice and chronological album order also helps explain a phrase that goes back to Lucifer’s Friend’s original album run and your own time with the band – "every album is different."
While each album had that Lucifer’s Friend "sound" each album also carried its own dynamic – was that just where you were, musically, at each given time?
JL: You know Ross we have been asked that so many times and I can only relate back to what I’ve already said in answer to that question – we never, consciously, said "for this album we’re going to head in this direction" or "on this album we’re going to sound like this" or anything like that – it really was just the way the songs turned out.
Now, OK, if you were to hear the original stuff Peter Hesslein did, where he’s just strumming on acoustic guitar and la la-ing the melody and adding the occasional word, it may have got to the point where I thought "oh I don’t know about this one." But once the guys got in to the studio with the material and I went in a couple of days later to listen to what the band had come up with, I would find myself saying "I really like what they’re doing with this; this stuff is terrific!"
But there was never any conscious decision made where we said "right, we’re going to make a rock album this time" it really was just the way it turned out.
For example with Mind Exploding everybody was saying "ah, this time you have decided to go back to being a rock band" but we never went back; it was just the way that particular set of songs fell together.
RM: No, you certainly never went back, you continually evolved; you really were one of the most creative rock bands of the 70s.
I’m glad you mentioned Mind Exploding because to this day that’s one of my all-time-favourite albums.
We all love to do favourite album lists, especially music writers or music critics, and my own, which includes artists as musically diverse and creative as Todd Rundgren and Pat Metheny, includes Mind Exploding.
JL: Wow; thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying that.
RM: It just clicked with me. It worked on every level, had a style and dynamic like very few other mid-70s rock albums – piano led or piano arranged numbers for example – and featured extremely creative writing from straight ahead rock to longer-form pieces.
JL: To be honest with you Banquet is my absolute favourite album; I loved making that album and enjoyed every minute of singing it and all the stuff that went along with its recording.
But, second on that list for me is Mind Exploding – and we have to keep two or three songs in the live set from that album because we have had so many people saying "oh you can’t go back out and do a show without Moonshine Rider in the set – that has to be in there!"
JL: Mind Exploding was an excellent album as regards how the band delivered and there are some really good tracks on it. So, yeah, second on my Lucifer’s Friend list!
RM: Well fair enough, you’re only wrong by one album then [laughter].
To be fair John, Banquet, with its jazz rock song structures and arrangements, probably is the band’s finest hour but Mind Exploding took such a fresh and dynamic approach to 70s rock music that someone just catching it now could be forgiven for thinking it’s a recent album or one recorded in the 80s or 90s.
And the fact we’re still talking about those albums some forty years later? That’s their true musical testament.
JL: It is, yes – but it’s not just the albums that are forty years older! [laughs]
RM: True; but the boys can still play and you’ve still got the voice.
JL: Well, yeah, but it’s a little lower these days; a little more blusier than it was I would say.
RM: Which puts you in the vocal company of around 90% of the rock and melodic pop singers who are "of an age" where vocal depth or vocal range will drop slightly. And you’ve always had a strong, bluesy core, still have a great set of pipes and can lift to a falsetto as and when required.
For me, you are one of the most vocally versatile singers in rock and roll. Long may that continue.
JL: Well thank you – but I have to tell you Ross it’s all down to the Jack Daniels and cigarettes…
RM: [laughs] So that's the magic mixture. Clearly that’s where I went wrong back in the day…
JL: [laughs] I’m just being humorous obviously; the truth is I’ve never really worked on it.
If it happens it just happens and when the time comes when it doesn’t? Well, that’s just the way it goes.
RM: Well fair enough, you’re only wrong by one album then [laughter].
To be fair John, Banquet, with its jazz rock song structures and arrangements, probably is the band’s finest hour but Mind Exploding took such a fresh and dynamic approach to 70s rock music that someone just catching it now could be forgiven for thinking it’s a recent album or one recorded in the 80s or 90s.
And the fact we’re still talking about those albums some forty years later? That’s their true musical testament.
JL: It is, yes – but it’s not just the albums that are forty years older! [laughs]
RM: True; but the boys can still play and you’ve still got the voice.
JL: Well, yeah, but it’s a little lower these days; a little more blusier than it was I would say.
RM: Which puts you in the vocal company of around 90% of the rock and melodic pop singers who are "of an age" where vocal depth or vocal range will drop slightly. And you’ve always had a strong, bluesy core, still have a great set of pipes and can lift to a falsetto as and when required.
For me, you are one of the most vocally versatile singers in rock and roll. Long may that continue.
JL: Well thank you – but I have to tell you Ross it’s all down to the Jack Daniels and cigarettes…
RM: [laughs] So that's the magic mixture. Clearly that’s where I went wrong back in the day…
JL: [laughs] I’m just being humorous obviously; the truth is I’ve never really worked on it.
If it happens it just happens and when the time comes when it doesn’t? Well, that’s just the way it goes.
Banquet and Mind Exploding, the creative and dynamic jewels in the crown worn by Lucifer's Friend over
their original eight album, eleven year run. Both have received remastered reissue on Repertoire Records.
RM: Talking of vocal versatility, it’s interesting to note the very same year Mind Exploding was released a vocal sextet called the Les Humphries Singers were competing in the Eurovision Song Contest…
JL: Oh, please [laughs]…
RM: I know, easy target for ridicule and all that but it’s an incredible musical curio that in 1976, between the release of Mind Exploding and joining one of the great British hard rock bands, Uriah Heep, you’re Sing Sang Song-ing your way to third place for Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest [loud laughter]…
JL: Yes, that’s all true; but I think we’ll just sweep that middle bit under the carpet!
RM: Well we can, and to be fair I think over the decades we all have [laughter].
But seriously, what great exposure; that show commands an average of some sixty million viewers with a top-end nearer three times that and you were performing in an era where any pop artist worth their salt wanted to be part of the Eurovision Song Contest – I need only say 1974 and Abba.
And to be honest with you I still watch it now – but not for the song quality [laughs]…
JL: Yes, it was different back then; that's true. I still watch it as well, but out the corner of my eye [laughter].
Everyone pretends they don’t or will say "oh I never watch that show now" but in actual fact they do!
I just watch it for the sheer hell of it to be honest [laughs].
RM: My wife and I are exactly the same, John – and once the ridiculousness of it kicks off?
Train Wreck TV. You just can’t look away…
JL: It is, isn’t it? Train Wreck TV [laughs]. I couldn’t have put it better myself!
RM: From Eurovision to Uriah Heep who, as I mentioned you joined later in 1976.
You were with the band for some three and a half years, featured on three studio albums and have since become part of the Heep "family," guesting with the band on occasion and stepping in for singer Bernie Shaw when Bernie had to take time out. Happy memories of your time with the band?
JL: Absolutely and I’ve always said that once you join Heep you never really leave; that’s just the way of it. I’m still in touch with them and, yes, I stepped in for Bernie in 1995 and again in 2013.
Mick had called me and said "listen, Bernie needs to pop in to hospital and we have a ten day stint in Europe coming up – can you do the dates?" I checked my diary, everything was OK and off we went!
So, yeah, we’re all good mates and as I say, once you’ve been with Uriah Heep you never really leave!
And Bernie and I get on really well – we’ve done a couple of duets together with Heep – I respect him as a vocalist and hopefully he feels the same way about me!
RM: Oh there’s a mutual respect there that’s for sure and you’re both great singers but with different vocal dynamics – hence why you dovetail so well when you’ve performed duets with Heep.
JL: Yeah, and as I say Bernie and I have become good friends but if they have a problem, and they need me, they know I’ll be there for them.
RM: Just call 0800-LAWTON…
JL: [laughs] Yes, because they are mates and we’re all together in this business.
You just get out there and do it; it’s just part and parcel of what you do.
RM: After Heep you hit your stride on a great and varied solo career that has included Gunhill, the John Lawton Band and interesting collaborative projects such as OTR and your work with Bulgarian band Diana Express. We’ll talk about both projects shortly but that solo career started in 1980 with Heartbeat.
That’s a great melodic pop-rock album but one that's almost another Lucifer’s Friend project in everything but name – all the boys contributed if memory serves?
JL: They did, yes, we had all of them playing apart from our original drummer; Curt Cress was behind the kit for Heartbeat.
RM: But he's another friend of old Lucifer's – Curt played on Mind Exploding and would later contribute to Sumo Grip, the Lucifer's Friend II album…
JL: He did, yes. Curt’s a really good drummer and a really nice guy and I honesty enjoyed every minute of that album, too.
That project started by Peter Hesslein coming up to me and saying "listen John, I’ve got some songs here – have a listen to them, see what you think, and maybe we could put an album out as a John Lawton project." So I had a listen, I loved the tracks and thought "yeah, why not; let’s do it."
And it worked out really well but unfortunately, although it did get in to the Billboard charts in the States, the record company was very reluctant to follow it up with any real exposure.
So, like a lot of bands and a lot or artists find these days, unless you get that push from the people concerned you’re simply not going to get the exposure you need.
But I was very happy with Heartbeat; it was well received amongst the fans and I enjoyed doing it.
RM: When you left Uriah Heep at the end of 1979 the album the band were recording was shelved.
However most Heep fans have since heard it – and heard Ken Hensley taking the band even further in to the realms of soft pop-rock.
Now that’s fine, if the songs are fully "Heepified" and of a high quality, but that certainly wasn’t the case across the ten tracks that would have made up that album.
So, for me, and I suspect a lot of fans, Heartbeat becomes the higher quality, better songs equivalent of the direction Heep originally tried to pursue as the decades changed.
JL: Thank you; that’s nice to hear. When we went back in to the studio in 1979 to follow up Fallen Angel the material that Ken was coming in with was looking to follow up the success we had with Free Me and songs like that. But to my mind that was not what the band had made their name on.
Uriah Heep had made their name with albums such as Demons and Wizards and good, complicated vocal harmonies but the things that were being written at that time just didn’t seem to be heading that way.
So we had some musical differences about it and that led to the split in the band.
RM: When you and Lee Kerslake left.
JL: That’s right. There were other, personal reasons for the split but musical differences was most definitely one of the main reasons – and, as you say, people can now hear that album through the Ten Miles bootleg that eventually came out. In fact there are a lot of different versions of it out there.
RM: Indeed there are. Some of the tracks have since been officially released but the bootleg album known as the Ten Miles High lost album – or the Five Miles Acetate – still circulates to this day.
JL: Funnily enough Mick and I talked about the album at length a couple of years ago, when I was on tour with them as we mentioned earlier. We can talk about these things now and Mick had said "we’ve got to do something with Ten Miles; we’ve got to finish that off," because there is some good stuff on there.
RM: Well I honestly feel a lot of the songs would need to be completely rearranged or beefed up – and a couple of them would have to be accidentally deleted [laughter] – but, yes, there are some really good songs on that album.
JL: I think so; I really think there is some good stuff there that we could finish off one of these days.
But, it’s finding the time to do it and, to be honest, the inclination to do it because I know Ken is not so keen on following it up. But I know Mick would like to do a little bit of work on it so maybe at some point we will. We’ll see; you just never know…
RM: It would be interesting but there are a couple of songs on there that – to return to an earlier, somewhat dodgy musical subject – even Eurovision contestants wouldn’t touch [loud laughter].
I remember a line from Trevor Bolder who, when asked about that album in interview many, many years ago said "I think Ken must have fallen in love the week he wrote some of those songs…"
JL: Good old Trevor [laughs]; I do so miss him. Trevor was such a lovely guy and an exceptional bass player. When Bernie had problems and he couldn’t do those tour dates a couple of years ago I was actually thinking "that’s something to look forward to because it will be great to work with Trevor again."
But of course his own illness had started by then, he wasn’t able to play and the rest is history, sadly.
So I never got to work with Trevor again and while circumstances were as they were, and we can’t change that, it’s something I will always regret.
But, yes, I think Trevor was right – I think Ken probably had fallen in love that week [laughs].
RM: And you're right about Trevor’s talents. I wrote a little remembrance piece for Trevor just after he passed in 2013 and signed off with "Ziggy played guitar. But Tufty played rock bass. And played it better than most."
JL: [laughs] But he absolutely did. That’s a great way of putting it Ross; that’s a lovely line.
RM: I mentioned earlier about the other-band projects threaded through your solo career and I’d like to talk a little about a couple of them.
Mamonama, the 2008 album by On The Rocks or OTR – that’s a fantastic little album with latin-esque and jazz flavours running through its rock core…
JL: Thank you. That all started through a friend of mine, Rodrigo Werneck who lives in Brazil – in Rio as a matter of fact.
Rodrigo kicked things off by sending me an email that said his friend Jan Dumée – who had played in Focus for a few years and had not long left the band – had some material and was looking for someone to sing it. So I told Rodrigo I was happy to listen to it and he put me in touch with Jan, who subsequently came over and stayed with me for a couple of days as we went through the songs.
Now, what Jan had, basically, was a bunch of songs where he actually played the melody line on the guitar and he asked me if I could do that vocally.
I was happy to give it a shot so I went over to Holland with Jan where I wrote some lyrics and other little things for the songs and the partnership worked out quite well.
At that point Jan told me what he really wanted to do was to get some Brazilian musicians to play on it so he headed over to Rio to play with those guys – who I never actually met – and he put the tracks together that way.
But it all turned out really well and a little different. I particularly like the title track and Hello from that album.
RM: Well rather than choose one let’s hear a little of both, because there's great contrast between the two songs. They also help to present what OTR were about, musically…
their original eight album, eleven year run. Both have received remastered reissue on Repertoire Records.
RM: Talking of vocal versatility, it’s interesting to note the very same year Mind Exploding was released a vocal sextet called the Les Humphries Singers were competing in the Eurovision Song Contest…
JL: Oh, please [laughs]…
RM: I know, easy target for ridicule and all that but it’s an incredible musical curio that in 1976, between the release of Mind Exploding and joining one of the great British hard rock bands, Uriah Heep, you’re Sing Sang Song-ing your way to third place for Germany in the Eurovision Song Contest [loud laughter]…
JL: Yes, that’s all true; but I think we’ll just sweep that middle bit under the carpet!
RM: Well we can, and to be fair I think over the decades we all have [laughter].
But seriously, what great exposure; that show commands an average of some sixty million viewers with a top-end nearer three times that and you were performing in an era where any pop artist worth their salt wanted to be part of the Eurovision Song Contest – I need only say 1974 and Abba.
And to be honest with you I still watch it now – but not for the song quality [laughs]…
JL: Yes, it was different back then; that's true. I still watch it as well, but out the corner of my eye [laughter].
Everyone pretends they don’t or will say "oh I never watch that show now" but in actual fact they do!
I just watch it for the sheer hell of it to be honest [laughs].
RM: My wife and I are exactly the same, John – and once the ridiculousness of it kicks off?
Train Wreck TV. You just can’t look away…
JL: It is, isn’t it? Train Wreck TV [laughs]. I couldn’t have put it better myself!
RM: From Eurovision to Uriah Heep who, as I mentioned you joined later in 1976.
You were with the band for some three and a half years, featured on three studio albums and have since become part of the Heep "family," guesting with the band on occasion and stepping in for singer Bernie Shaw when Bernie had to take time out. Happy memories of your time with the band?
JL: Absolutely and I’ve always said that once you join Heep you never really leave; that’s just the way of it. I’m still in touch with them and, yes, I stepped in for Bernie in 1995 and again in 2013.
Mick had called me and said "listen, Bernie needs to pop in to hospital and we have a ten day stint in Europe coming up – can you do the dates?" I checked my diary, everything was OK and off we went!
So, yeah, we’re all good mates and as I say, once you’ve been with Uriah Heep you never really leave!
And Bernie and I get on really well – we’ve done a couple of duets together with Heep – I respect him as a vocalist and hopefully he feels the same way about me!
RM: Oh there’s a mutual respect there that’s for sure and you’re both great singers but with different vocal dynamics – hence why you dovetail so well when you’ve performed duets with Heep.
JL: Yeah, and as I say Bernie and I have become good friends but if they have a problem, and they need me, they know I’ll be there for them.
RM: Just call 0800-LAWTON…
JL: [laughs] Yes, because they are mates and we’re all together in this business.
You just get out there and do it; it’s just part and parcel of what you do.
RM: After Heep you hit your stride on a great and varied solo career that has included Gunhill, the John Lawton Band and interesting collaborative projects such as OTR and your work with Bulgarian band Diana Express. We’ll talk about both projects shortly but that solo career started in 1980 with Heartbeat.
That’s a great melodic pop-rock album but one that's almost another Lucifer’s Friend project in everything but name – all the boys contributed if memory serves?
JL: They did, yes, we had all of them playing apart from our original drummer; Curt Cress was behind the kit for Heartbeat.
RM: But he's another friend of old Lucifer's – Curt played on Mind Exploding and would later contribute to Sumo Grip, the Lucifer's Friend II album…
JL: He did, yes. Curt’s a really good drummer and a really nice guy and I honesty enjoyed every minute of that album, too.
That project started by Peter Hesslein coming up to me and saying "listen John, I’ve got some songs here – have a listen to them, see what you think, and maybe we could put an album out as a John Lawton project." So I had a listen, I loved the tracks and thought "yeah, why not; let’s do it."
And it worked out really well but unfortunately, although it did get in to the Billboard charts in the States, the record company was very reluctant to follow it up with any real exposure.
So, like a lot of bands and a lot or artists find these days, unless you get that push from the people concerned you’re simply not going to get the exposure you need.
But I was very happy with Heartbeat; it was well received amongst the fans and I enjoyed doing it.
RM: When you left Uriah Heep at the end of 1979 the album the band were recording was shelved.
However most Heep fans have since heard it – and heard Ken Hensley taking the band even further in to the realms of soft pop-rock.
Now that’s fine, if the songs are fully "Heepified" and of a high quality, but that certainly wasn’t the case across the ten tracks that would have made up that album.
So, for me, and I suspect a lot of fans, Heartbeat becomes the higher quality, better songs equivalent of the direction Heep originally tried to pursue as the decades changed.
JL: Thank you; that’s nice to hear. When we went back in to the studio in 1979 to follow up Fallen Angel the material that Ken was coming in with was looking to follow up the success we had with Free Me and songs like that. But to my mind that was not what the band had made their name on.
Uriah Heep had made their name with albums such as Demons and Wizards and good, complicated vocal harmonies but the things that were being written at that time just didn’t seem to be heading that way.
So we had some musical differences about it and that led to the split in the band.
RM: When you and Lee Kerslake left.
JL: That’s right. There were other, personal reasons for the split but musical differences was most definitely one of the main reasons – and, as you say, people can now hear that album through the Ten Miles bootleg that eventually came out. In fact there are a lot of different versions of it out there.
RM: Indeed there are. Some of the tracks have since been officially released but the bootleg album known as the Ten Miles High lost album – or the Five Miles Acetate – still circulates to this day.
JL: Funnily enough Mick and I talked about the album at length a couple of years ago, when I was on tour with them as we mentioned earlier. We can talk about these things now and Mick had said "we’ve got to do something with Ten Miles; we’ve got to finish that off," because there is some good stuff on there.
RM: Well I honestly feel a lot of the songs would need to be completely rearranged or beefed up – and a couple of them would have to be accidentally deleted [laughter] – but, yes, there are some really good songs on that album.
JL: I think so; I really think there is some good stuff there that we could finish off one of these days.
But, it’s finding the time to do it and, to be honest, the inclination to do it because I know Ken is not so keen on following it up. But I know Mick would like to do a little bit of work on it so maybe at some point we will. We’ll see; you just never know…
RM: It would be interesting but there are a couple of songs on there that – to return to an earlier, somewhat dodgy musical subject – even Eurovision contestants wouldn’t touch [loud laughter].
I remember a line from Trevor Bolder who, when asked about that album in interview many, many years ago said "I think Ken must have fallen in love the week he wrote some of those songs…"
JL: Good old Trevor [laughs]; I do so miss him. Trevor was such a lovely guy and an exceptional bass player. When Bernie had problems and he couldn’t do those tour dates a couple of years ago I was actually thinking "that’s something to look forward to because it will be great to work with Trevor again."
But of course his own illness had started by then, he wasn’t able to play and the rest is history, sadly.
So I never got to work with Trevor again and while circumstances were as they were, and we can’t change that, it’s something I will always regret.
But, yes, I think Trevor was right – I think Ken probably had fallen in love that week [laughs].
RM: And you're right about Trevor’s talents. I wrote a little remembrance piece for Trevor just after he passed in 2013 and signed off with "Ziggy played guitar. But Tufty played rock bass. And played it better than most."
JL: [laughs] But he absolutely did. That’s a great way of putting it Ross; that’s a lovely line.
RM: I mentioned earlier about the other-band projects threaded through your solo career and I’d like to talk a little about a couple of them.
Mamonama, the 2008 album by On The Rocks or OTR – that’s a fantastic little album with latin-esque and jazz flavours running through its rock core…
JL: Thank you. That all started through a friend of mine, Rodrigo Werneck who lives in Brazil – in Rio as a matter of fact.
Rodrigo kicked things off by sending me an email that said his friend Jan Dumée – who had played in Focus for a few years and had not long left the band – had some material and was looking for someone to sing it. So I told Rodrigo I was happy to listen to it and he put me in touch with Jan, who subsequently came over and stayed with me for a couple of days as we went through the songs.
Now, what Jan had, basically, was a bunch of songs where he actually played the melody line on the guitar and he asked me if I could do that vocally.
I was happy to give it a shot so I went over to Holland with Jan where I wrote some lyrics and other little things for the songs and the partnership worked out quite well.
At that point Jan told me what he really wanted to do was to get some Brazilian musicians to play on it so he headed over to Rio to play with those guys – who I never actually met – and he put the tracks together that way.
But it all turned out really well and a little different. I particularly like the title track and Hello from that album.
RM: Well rather than choose one let’s hear a little of both, because there's great contrast between the two songs. They also help to present what OTR were about, musically…
JL: I thought we had a really good album with Mamonama but, again, we had the problem of not being able to find a record company or distribution company who would put money in to it and push the band’s name.
But that’s part and parcel of today’s music scene – you’re there one day but the next you’re gone, because you don’t have a hit or you didn’t sell enough albums the last time, or whatever.
So it turned out to be a bit like that for OTR, which was unfortunate because I do like the album; I think some of the stuff on Mamonama is really good.
RM: I had an interesting and lengthy chat with Manny Charlton just recently and we touched on the "there one day gone the next" subject.
Manny has released twelve solo or band project albums since leaving Nazareth but the number of people and rock fans here in Britain who don’t know that, or are only aware of a few of those albums, is extraordinary. Manny’s later, non-Nazareth releases just can’t get solid promotion or distribution.
JL: That’s exactly it. You might have a name in this business – like Manny, who is a brilliant guitarist – but, because he’s considered along with a lot of us to be "old hat" or rock dinosaurs or whatever you want to call it, it becomes a case of "well they’re obviously past it" or "thanks, but we don’t need anything from you."
And that’s regardless of how good the music might be; they just don’t see or hear it because you’re not flavour of the month or this week’s Boy Band or whoever it might be.
RM: That’s a major part of it but on many occasions it’s simply because a musician is no longer part of a marketable name. Where we used to have Classic Rock bands we now have Classic Rock brands, or musical franchises.
JL: Yes, absolutely. But unfortunately as we’ve just talked about that’s just the way the music business has gone. We just have to live with it.
RM: The other band project I want to give a shout out to is your collaboration with the Bulgarian pop and rock band Diana Express that became the Intelligent Music Project I album The Power of Mind.
That’s a really interesting work – very thematic with a lyrical concept of positive thought over a wonderful blend of orchestrated and classic pop, great vocal harmony arrangements and a little rock and roll.
JL: That was a really interesting project to work on. The album’s producer and composer of the material, Milen Vrabevski, MD, had approached me to ask if I would be interested in doing an English version of the album – the original album, of which I received a copy, was sung in Bulgarian!
So I had a listen and thought "OK, this could work" but when I got a hold of the translated lyrics – which, thank God, hadn’t been Google translated [loud laughter] – I realised that this had some real potential.
So I went over and did it and while it wasn’t a great success it did open some doors – as well as open the door to the idea of working with Bulgarian musicians. Because I have to say there are some brilliant musicians over there, there really are.
But that’s part and parcel of today’s music scene – you’re there one day but the next you’re gone, because you don’t have a hit or you didn’t sell enough albums the last time, or whatever.
So it turned out to be a bit like that for OTR, which was unfortunate because I do like the album; I think some of the stuff on Mamonama is really good.
RM: I had an interesting and lengthy chat with Manny Charlton just recently and we touched on the "there one day gone the next" subject.
Manny has released twelve solo or band project albums since leaving Nazareth but the number of people and rock fans here in Britain who don’t know that, or are only aware of a few of those albums, is extraordinary. Manny’s later, non-Nazareth releases just can’t get solid promotion or distribution.
JL: That’s exactly it. You might have a name in this business – like Manny, who is a brilliant guitarist – but, because he’s considered along with a lot of us to be "old hat" or rock dinosaurs or whatever you want to call it, it becomes a case of "well they’re obviously past it" or "thanks, but we don’t need anything from you."
And that’s regardless of how good the music might be; they just don’t see or hear it because you’re not flavour of the month or this week’s Boy Band or whoever it might be.
RM: That’s a major part of it but on many occasions it’s simply because a musician is no longer part of a marketable name. Where we used to have Classic Rock bands we now have Classic Rock brands, or musical franchises.
JL: Yes, absolutely. But unfortunately as we’ve just talked about that’s just the way the music business has gone. We just have to live with it.
RM: The other band project I want to give a shout out to is your collaboration with the Bulgarian pop and rock band Diana Express that became the Intelligent Music Project I album The Power of Mind.
That’s a really interesting work – very thematic with a lyrical concept of positive thought over a wonderful blend of orchestrated and classic pop, great vocal harmony arrangements and a little rock and roll.
JL: That was a really interesting project to work on. The album’s producer and composer of the material, Milen Vrabevski, MD, had approached me to ask if I would be interested in doing an English version of the album – the original album, of which I received a copy, was sung in Bulgarian!
So I had a listen and thought "OK, this could work" but when I got a hold of the translated lyrics – which, thank God, hadn’t been Google translated [loud laughter] – I realised that this had some real potential.
So I went over and did it and while it wasn’t a great success it did open some doors – as well as open the door to the idea of working with Bulgarian musicians. Because I have to say there are some brilliant musicians over there, there really are.
Intelligent Music, Intelligent Musicians. Composer and producer Dr Milen Vrabevski with John Lawton.
JL: We did The Power of Mind in 2012 and followed that up with My Kind O’ Lovin’ in 2014.
For that second Intelligent Music Project Milen brought in Joseph Williams of Toto for four songs; he also got Simon Philips to do the drum tracks.
I thought both albums turned out really well but, again (laughs) while they got good reviews they needed that promotion and that push – but to be honest we probably got a little lazy on that.
We also wanted to do some live shows but Joseph couldn’t make the dates; when we changed it so Joseph could make it Simon couldn’t do it, so as a project it never really got off the ground.
But The Power of Mind and My Kind O' Lovin’ are both good albums.
RM: They are indeed and through this chat I’m hoping a lot of people will now think "I really need to check those Intelligent Music Projects out. And OTR. And that Heartbeat album. But first I need to go and buy Awakening…"
JL: [laughs] Fantastic, and thank you so much for your support over the years Ross, I really do appreciate it.
And it’s been [mimics Scottish accent] great to hear that deep, Scottish brogue!
RM: Aye [exaggerates the accent], very good pal, I’ll give you six out of ten for effort [laughter].
I was about to musically sign off by featuring Pray but just for that I’m looking out the audio of Sing Sang Song…
JL: No, please! [laughs]
RM: You’re OK, I couldn’t do that to you – or to me, quite frankly [laughter].
John, it’s been great to catch up. My very best wishes for the Lucifer’s Friend reunion and pass on my regards to Peter and Dieter.
JL: I will mate and it's been an absolute pleasure – and a lot of fun – talking to you. Cheers!
JL: We did The Power of Mind in 2012 and followed that up with My Kind O’ Lovin’ in 2014.
For that second Intelligent Music Project Milen brought in Joseph Williams of Toto for four songs; he also got Simon Philips to do the drum tracks.
I thought both albums turned out really well but, again (laughs) while they got good reviews they needed that promotion and that push – but to be honest we probably got a little lazy on that.
We also wanted to do some live shows but Joseph couldn’t make the dates; when we changed it so Joseph could make it Simon couldn’t do it, so as a project it never really got off the ground.
But The Power of Mind and My Kind O' Lovin’ are both good albums.
RM: They are indeed and through this chat I’m hoping a lot of people will now think "I really need to check those Intelligent Music Projects out. And OTR. And that Heartbeat album. But first I need to go and buy Awakening…"
JL: [laughs] Fantastic, and thank you so much for your support over the years Ross, I really do appreciate it.
And it’s been [mimics Scottish accent] great to hear that deep, Scottish brogue!
RM: Aye [exaggerates the accent], very good pal, I’ll give you six out of ten for effort [laughter].
I was about to musically sign off by featuring Pray but just for that I’m looking out the audio of Sing Sang Song…
JL: No, please! [laughs]
RM: You’re OK, I couldn’t do that to you – or to me, quite frankly [laughter].
John, it’s been great to catch up. My very best wishes for the Lucifer’s Friend reunion and pass on my regards to Peter and Dieter.
JL: I will mate and it's been an absolute pleasure – and a lot of fun – talking to you. Cheers!
Ross Muir
Muirsical Conversation with John Lawton
May 2015
Awakening is out now on Cherry Red Records
John Lawton official website: http://www.johnlawtonmusic.com/
Lucifer’s Friend – Official Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/LucifersFriendOfficial?fref=ts
Intelligent Music Project releases: http://intelligent-music.com/productions/
Photo Credits: Intelligent Music website.
Audio tracks presented to accompany the above article and to promote the work of the artists.
No infringement of copyright is intended.
Muirsical Conversation with John Lawton
May 2015
Awakening is out now on Cherry Red Records
John Lawton official website: http://www.johnlawtonmusic.com/
Lucifer’s Friend – Official Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/LucifersFriendOfficial?fref=ts
Intelligent Music Project releases: http://intelligent-music.com/productions/
Photo Credits: Intelligent Music website.
Audio tracks presented to accompany the above article and to promote the work of the artists.
No infringement of copyright is intended.