Changing Times
Muirsical Conversation with Manny Charlton
Muirsical Conversation with Manny Charlton
2015 marks 25 years since Manny Charlton left Scottish rock giants Nazareth.
Yet such is the impact made by Nazareth in their original form that the noted guitarist will forever be linked to the band he co-founded in 1968 and their classic 70s and more commercially geared 80s decades.
Manny Charlton also produced some of Nazareth's most popular records (including Hair of the Dog and No Mean City), co-wrote much of the classic material and was instrumental in choosing or arranging many of the covers recorded by the band (a number of which went on to become as successful as their self-penned hits).
But Manny Charlton has also had a prolific post Nazareth career – since 1997 he has recorded and released seven solo albums, three Manny Charlton Band albums and one other band (From Behind) album.
By the spring of 2015 a twelfth album project was nearing completion.
However Manny Charlton the Independent solo artist is also one of the many musicians who, even with a rich musical legacy behind them, find it’s very much a case of changing times in this digital day and brand name age.
In an extended conversation with FabricationsHQ Manny Charlton spoke candidly about the current situation as well as the unrecognisable state of musical affairs when compared to rock’s classic era.
The guitarist also took time out to reminisce about those Razamatastic days and explain why Nazareth's successes of the 70s didn’t repeat in the 80s.
But the conversation started in the present and the plight of the "SOLO" artist…
Ross Muir: I want to start with the current situation as regards your latest project, SOLO.
According to your website that album is almost completed – does that hint at a near-future release?
Manny Charlton: I’m not sure when a release will happen for SOLO to be honest with you, Ross.
I’m looking right now for anyone who would be willing to distribute the album or release it; that’s the hard part.
RM: Therein lies the problem for so many musicians, from the name artist with a back catalogue that speaks for itself to the Independent artist trying to keep costs down or working on a budget.
Gone are the days of A&R boys and those willing to champion the cause. It’s an unrecognisable industry from the one we knew back in the day…
MC: Well, there is no industry any more, really.
RM: Or what there is digitally driven. We know the obvious benefits – the artist can get his or her stuff up and out there immediately but the downside is, of course, it can be obtained illegally or posted to YouTube. Suddenly that instant availability of your product also means losing money / income hand over fist.
MC: That’s right, and with it being digital they can create a perfect copy of the original – so that’s not a good business model! [laughs].
RM: No it isn’t and it’s seemingly impossible to regulate. I’m not sure anyone ever saw this digital tsunami coming, at least not to this fast and loose degree.
MC: Well I kind of saw the beginnings of it when I was still in Scotland, about twenty-five years ago, when I saw the pirated goods starting to get sold over at the Ingilston Market…
RM: The famous Ingilston Markets; I remember them very well…
MC: Oh they were great; sold anything and everything. But, when people started to sell pirate copies of computer software and then moved on to selling CDs of music that was clearly illegal and pirated?
I mean you could get every Beatles album on a handful of CDs for next to nothing!
And I remember thinking even back then "this is not good." You could feel something was coming.
Now, years later, those CD tracks have become MP3s and people can grab them and download them freely or cheaply and in no time at all. It’s just got worse and worse for the artist.
I was just reading today that even HBO are losing money hand over fist with Game of Thrones because of piracy – they’re talking not thousands but potentially millions of downloads from the Torrent sites.
And that’s a crying shame because that’s money that could be feeding the industry.
RM: And if it affects the artist it affects the end user. An obvious example is the fan who might want a CD or hear of about a forthcoming album like, say, SOLO, but as we’ve just being discussing it might not be worth your while having X number of CD’s manufactured because there’s every chance some bugger will get a copy, upload to YouTube or a Torrent site and suddenly anyone can get the album – at your expense.
MC: Right, because you just don’t know. So then you start thinking "well do I just print one thousand?"
But even then you might still end up with them in your garage, you know?
RM: Which begs the question do you think SOLO will see the light of day in some shape or form?
Yet such is the impact made by Nazareth in their original form that the noted guitarist will forever be linked to the band he co-founded in 1968 and their classic 70s and more commercially geared 80s decades.
Manny Charlton also produced some of Nazareth's most popular records (including Hair of the Dog and No Mean City), co-wrote much of the classic material and was instrumental in choosing or arranging many of the covers recorded by the band (a number of which went on to become as successful as their self-penned hits).
But Manny Charlton has also had a prolific post Nazareth career – since 1997 he has recorded and released seven solo albums, three Manny Charlton Band albums and one other band (From Behind) album.
By the spring of 2015 a twelfth album project was nearing completion.
However Manny Charlton the Independent solo artist is also one of the many musicians who, even with a rich musical legacy behind them, find it’s very much a case of changing times in this digital day and brand name age.
In an extended conversation with FabricationsHQ Manny Charlton spoke candidly about the current situation as well as the unrecognisable state of musical affairs when compared to rock’s classic era.
The guitarist also took time out to reminisce about those Razamatastic days and explain why Nazareth's successes of the 70s didn’t repeat in the 80s.
But the conversation started in the present and the plight of the "SOLO" artist…
Ross Muir: I want to start with the current situation as regards your latest project, SOLO.
According to your website that album is almost completed – does that hint at a near-future release?
Manny Charlton: I’m not sure when a release will happen for SOLO to be honest with you, Ross.
I’m looking right now for anyone who would be willing to distribute the album or release it; that’s the hard part.
RM: Therein lies the problem for so many musicians, from the name artist with a back catalogue that speaks for itself to the Independent artist trying to keep costs down or working on a budget.
Gone are the days of A&R boys and those willing to champion the cause. It’s an unrecognisable industry from the one we knew back in the day…
MC: Well, there is no industry any more, really.
RM: Or what there is digitally driven. We know the obvious benefits – the artist can get his or her stuff up and out there immediately but the downside is, of course, it can be obtained illegally or posted to YouTube. Suddenly that instant availability of your product also means losing money / income hand over fist.
MC: That’s right, and with it being digital they can create a perfect copy of the original – so that’s not a good business model! [laughs].
RM: No it isn’t and it’s seemingly impossible to regulate. I’m not sure anyone ever saw this digital tsunami coming, at least not to this fast and loose degree.
MC: Well I kind of saw the beginnings of it when I was still in Scotland, about twenty-five years ago, when I saw the pirated goods starting to get sold over at the Ingilston Market…
RM: The famous Ingilston Markets; I remember them very well…
MC: Oh they were great; sold anything and everything. But, when people started to sell pirate copies of computer software and then moved on to selling CDs of music that was clearly illegal and pirated?
I mean you could get every Beatles album on a handful of CDs for next to nothing!
And I remember thinking even back then "this is not good." You could feel something was coming.
Now, years later, those CD tracks have become MP3s and people can grab them and download them freely or cheaply and in no time at all. It’s just got worse and worse for the artist.
I was just reading today that even HBO are losing money hand over fist with Game of Thrones because of piracy – they’re talking not thousands but potentially millions of downloads from the Torrent sites.
And that’s a crying shame because that’s money that could be feeding the industry.
RM: And if it affects the artist it affects the end user. An obvious example is the fan who might want a CD or hear of about a forthcoming album like, say, SOLO, but as we’ve just being discussing it might not be worth your while having X number of CD’s manufactured because there’s every chance some bugger will get a copy, upload to YouTube or a Torrent site and suddenly anyone can get the album – at your expense.
MC: Right, because you just don’t know. So then you start thinking "well do I just print one thousand?"
But even then you might still end up with them in your garage, you know?
RM: Which begs the question do you think SOLO will see the light of day in some shape or form?
MC: Well, first of all, I should say there are some tracks from SOLO on my ReverbNation site; they can’t be downloaded but the fans can listen to them so they can hear where I am right now, musically.
That’s the situation right now as far as making some songs available.
RM: Have you considered the fan-funding route? Pledge sites such as Kickstarter?
MC: The problem there is that sounds a lot like begging to me…
RM: Not at all; many fans are only to pleased to have the chance to be involved and I’ve worked with, or helped promote, a number of name artists that have gone down that route successfully.
A great example is Steve Hunter, who used Kickstarter for his 2013 album The Manhattan Blues Project.
That album is Steve’s crowning achievement as a solo artist and he’ll tell you that using Kickstarter was the best thing he ever did.
MC: Maybe I should think about that option a bit more but I actually don’t need to finance the recording or the completing of the albums. I’ve got my own studio and I can do the whole thing myself, if needs be – I don't even need an engineer. I have all the recording gear I need right here in my studio and that’s how I’ve been doing most of my albums for nearly twenty years now, ever since I came over to the States in fact.
RM: It was the late 90s you moved across the pond to Texas?
MC: Yes, 1997. I thought I would come over here and find a good, healthy music scene in Texas but it’s as bad here as anywhere else! [laughter]
Really, it’s just as bad here, the live scene. It’s the old Pay to Play and "bring your own fans with you."
You probably know the sort of thing…
RM: I do indeed; that disease is prevalent on both sided of the pond.
MC: I know, it’s terrible. In fact I must tell you this story…
I played the Whisky a Go-Go about eighteen months ago and it was the biggest mistake I ever made.
There were about twenty bands playing that day, all unsigned, and each had to bring their own gear in, set it up, play their set and then (snaps fingers) get out – because the next band’s ready to come on.
They had twenty bands in there and none of them got paid; that sort of situation is useless.
RM: When even a club as famous as the Whisky is playing that game, you know times have changed.
The number of bands that have had to decline a gig because the club or venue has said "absolutely you can come and play, but we won’t be paying you..."
MC: And when those bands do play, the club or live music bar – or whatever it may be – is making money off the beer being sold to the punters!
These places just end up ripping the bands off by not paying them and taking profits at the bar.
But the other problem is there are so many young bands out there that will do anything to play in front of a few dozen of their friends.
RM: And you have some instances where those friends or family of a band on a support slot leave – or head for the bar – when their band finishes. Zero respect or gratitude to the band or promoter that’s given them the opportunity.
MC: What makes that worse is a lot of these places ask for a guarantee from the booked or headline band for a minimum number of ticket sales or they won’t give you the gig – and then some of that audience leaves when the support leaves? Crazy !
RM: It’s very changed days from when four young lads in Dunfermline changed their name from the Shadettes to Nazareth as the 60s became the 70s and decided to give writing and recording their own rock based material a go…
MC: [laughs] I know, I know… but they were happy days.
RM: I notice that on SOLO, or the track listing for what will be SOLO, you’ve revisited some Nazareth numbers, much as you did on your previous album Hellacious.
This time around you’ve brought the sun out by including both Sunshine and May the Sunshine…
MC: Yes, I’m doing covers of my own songs, folks [laughs]. But then I really like the tracks and they are my songs – or I had a big hand in how they sounded and how they came together. And I produced most of them. It’s something I really like doing to be honest; I love to revisit the old material and if I was doing them now this is how I would do them. I think that’s perfectly valid.
RM: I think it’s also merited, taking old, classic material and revisiting it – or putting a slightly different spin on it. And it’s something that was very successful for Nazareth, a band that became as well-known and successful for their covers as their own, now classic material.
And as you say you love to record covers – you did two predominately cover song albums ten years ago, Sharp and Sharp Reloaded; in fact they were given a re-release last year on Angel Air.
MC: They were, yes. I’m a big fan of music; I used to buy records and I’ve listened to music pretty much all my life, so there were a lot of really good songs out there that I heard or picked up on.
I used to say to the band "let’s do this one" or "let’s do that one" because why rely on writing every single damn song yourself, you know? Especially when you know you can drop something in there that is excellent and put your own slant on it.
One of the best examples of Nazareth doing just that is Joni Mitchel’s This Flight tonight. That’s a great song, but we did our own version of it; we didn’t do a note for note cover but then how, or why, the hell would you do that with a Joni Mitchell song?
It was the same sort of thing with the Everly Brothers and Love Hurts. We didn’t want to do a note-for-note version; we wanted to play it the way we played.
As I said earlier I think that’s perfectly valid, doing covers in that way; a lot of bands will say "oh we only do our own songs" and that’s great – if you’ve got twelve great songs!
But why put that load on your shoulders when you know you can cover a great song and do a great version of it? And that also takes the pressure of your own writing, at least to a degree.
RM: Nazareth did that as well as any and better than most – to the extent that it got to the stage where fans were waiting to see and hear what the next cover would be, or what covers would be on the next album.
In some cases those covers introduced a song or artist to a fan-base that wouldn’t otherwise have been familiar with them.
MC: That’s exactly it. No one, or at least very few of the rock fans, even knew This Flight Tonight was a Joni Mitchell song. Same with Love hurts.
Everybody thought those songs were Nazareth songs and in fact after we had recorded This Flight Tonight Joni Mitchel used to introduce it in her sets as a Nazareth song!
RM: I remember that [laughs]; it also spoke volumes about the impact Nazareth made with that song – and what the song did for Nazareth of course. I thought Joni doing that was great; such kudos.
MC: It was fantastic that she did that, yes; just great.
RM: The success and impact of Love Hurts however was more of a surprise given the band didn’t record it together and there wasn’t any, or hellish little, studio dampening on Dan McCafferty’s lead vocal.
The end result was a recording of a cover the band weren’t really sure about…
MC: That’s true! What had happened was Dan McCafferty and Pete Agnew were away at a wedding and Darrell Sweet and I were in the studio, twiddling our fingers. And I think Darrell had said "what do you want to do" to which I replied "let’s try doing a version of Love Hurts."
So I laid down all the guitar parts and Darrell put down the drum track and when Pete and Dan came back the next day and asked what we had been up to we said "well, we did a wee version of Love Hurts."
And I remember them saying "Love Hurts? Well, okay; what key is it in?"
When I said "it’s in G" Pete immediately went "G! Holy shit…" [laughter].
But Dan, trooper that he was, just said "no problem, I’ll do it" but there are some really high notes in there, especially in the bridge and the "they’re not fooling me" line. That line was just too much of a stretch for Dan so I slowed the tape down by the littlest of touches so he could hit the notes and he just made it.
But we got it down, we finished it off and it’s become a classic.
RM: It’s also a classic case of how uncertainty in the studio or "let’s have a bash at covering this" or "we need to record a single" can lead to a completely unforeseen success or hit.
MC: Yes, but the funny thing is when we released Love Hurts as a single in the UK – before we recorded the Hair of The Dog album – it didn’t do anything. We started to think we should have just waited and put it on Hair of the Dog as an album track but we went with another cover, Guilty, by Randy Newman, which is another great song. That’s how the European edition of Hair of the Dog was released, with Guilty on it.
But when Jerry Moss of A&M Records came over to hear the album, before we released it in the US, he said: "that’s a fantastic album but take Guilty off and put Love Hurts on it."
And that’s why Jerry was the head of a major record company because he could hear that Love Hurts could be a hit in America, and it was!
It went on to become a hit when the album was released there but it took a long time; it was out for about six months before it started to get attention but it went on to be a Top 10 record in the States.
And on the back of that we sold the album; Love Hurts sold Hair of the Dog.
That’s the situation right now as far as making some songs available.
RM: Have you considered the fan-funding route? Pledge sites such as Kickstarter?
MC: The problem there is that sounds a lot like begging to me…
RM: Not at all; many fans are only to pleased to have the chance to be involved and I’ve worked with, or helped promote, a number of name artists that have gone down that route successfully.
A great example is Steve Hunter, who used Kickstarter for his 2013 album The Manhattan Blues Project.
That album is Steve’s crowning achievement as a solo artist and he’ll tell you that using Kickstarter was the best thing he ever did.
MC: Maybe I should think about that option a bit more but I actually don’t need to finance the recording or the completing of the albums. I’ve got my own studio and I can do the whole thing myself, if needs be – I don't even need an engineer. I have all the recording gear I need right here in my studio and that’s how I’ve been doing most of my albums for nearly twenty years now, ever since I came over to the States in fact.
RM: It was the late 90s you moved across the pond to Texas?
MC: Yes, 1997. I thought I would come over here and find a good, healthy music scene in Texas but it’s as bad here as anywhere else! [laughter]
Really, it’s just as bad here, the live scene. It’s the old Pay to Play and "bring your own fans with you."
You probably know the sort of thing…
RM: I do indeed; that disease is prevalent on both sided of the pond.
MC: I know, it’s terrible. In fact I must tell you this story…
I played the Whisky a Go-Go about eighteen months ago and it was the biggest mistake I ever made.
There were about twenty bands playing that day, all unsigned, and each had to bring their own gear in, set it up, play their set and then (snaps fingers) get out – because the next band’s ready to come on.
They had twenty bands in there and none of them got paid; that sort of situation is useless.
RM: When even a club as famous as the Whisky is playing that game, you know times have changed.
The number of bands that have had to decline a gig because the club or venue has said "absolutely you can come and play, but we won’t be paying you..."
MC: And when those bands do play, the club or live music bar – or whatever it may be – is making money off the beer being sold to the punters!
These places just end up ripping the bands off by not paying them and taking profits at the bar.
But the other problem is there are so many young bands out there that will do anything to play in front of a few dozen of their friends.
RM: And you have some instances where those friends or family of a band on a support slot leave – or head for the bar – when their band finishes. Zero respect or gratitude to the band or promoter that’s given them the opportunity.
MC: What makes that worse is a lot of these places ask for a guarantee from the booked or headline band for a minimum number of ticket sales or they won’t give you the gig – and then some of that audience leaves when the support leaves? Crazy !
RM: It’s very changed days from when four young lads in Dunfermline changed their name from the Shadettes to Nazareth as the 60s became the 70s and decided to give writing and recording their own rock based material a go…
MC: [laughs] I know, I know… but they were happy days.
RM: I notice that on SOLO, or the track listing for what will be SOLO, you’ve revisited some Nazareth numbers, much as you did on your previous album Hellacious.
This time around you’ve brought the sun out by including both Sunshine and May the Sunshine…
MC: Yes, I’m doing covers of my own songs, folks [laughs]. But then I really like the tracks and they are my songs – or I had a big hand in how they sounded and how they came together. And I produced most of them. It’s something I really like doing to be honest; I love to revisit the old material and if I was doing them now this is how I would do them. I think that’s perfectly valid.
RM: I think it’s also merited, taking old, classic material and revisiting it – or putting a slightly different spin on it. And it’s something that was very successful for Nazareth, a band that became as well-known and successful for their covers as their own, now classic material.
And as you say you love to record covers – you did two predominately cover song albums ten years ago, Sharp and Sharp Reloaded; in fact they were given a re-release last year on Angel Air.
MC: They were, yes. I’m a big fan of music; I used to buy records and I’ve listened to music pretty much all my life, so there were a lot of really good songs out there that I heard or picked up on.
I used to say to the band "let’s do this one" or "let’s do that one" because why rely on writing every single damn song yourself, you know? Especially when you know you can drop something in there that is excellent and put your own slant on it.
One of the best examples of Nazareth doing just that is Joni Mitchel’s This Flight tonight. That’s a great song, but we did our own version of it; we didn’t do a note for note cover but then how, or why, the hell would you do that with a Joni Mitchell song?
It was the same sort of thing with the Everly Brothers and Love Hurts. We didn’t want to do a note-for-note version; we wanted to play it the way we played.
As I said earlier I think that’s perfectly valid, doing covers in that way; a lot of bands will say "oh we only do our own songs" and that’s great – if you’ve got twelve great songs!
But why put that load on your shoulders when you know you can cover a great song and do a great version of it? And that also takes the pressure of your own writing, at least to a degree.
RM: Nazareth did that as well as any and better than most – to the extent that it got to the stage where fans were waiting to see and hear what the next cover would be, or what covers would be on the next album.
In some cases those covers introduced a song or artist to a fan-base that wouldn’t otherwise have been familiar with them.
MC: That’s exactly it. No one, or at least very few of the rock fans, even knew This Flight Tonight was a Joni Mitchell song. Same with Love hurts.
Everybody thought those songs were Nazareth songs and in fact after we had recorded This Flight Tonight Joni Mitchel used to introduce it in her sets as a Nazareth song!
RM: I remember that [laughs]; it also spoke volumes about the impact Nazareth made with that song – and what the song did for Nazareth of course. I thought Joni doing that was great; such kudos.
MC: It was fantastic that she did that, yes; just great.
RM: The success and impact of Love Hurts however was more of a surprise given the band didn’t record it together and there wasn’t any, or hellish little, studio dampening on Dan McCafferty’s lead vocal.
The end result was a recording of a cover the band weren’t really sure about…
MC: That’s true! What had happened was Dan McCafferty and Pete Agnew were away at a wedding and Darrell Sweet and I were in the studio, twiddling our fingers. And I think Darrell had said "what do you want to do" to which I replied "let’s try doing a version of Love Hurts."
So I laid down all the guitar parts and Darrell put down the drum track and when Pete and Dan came back the next day and asked what we had been up to we said "well, we did a wee version of Love Hurts."
And I remember them saying "Love Hurts? Well, okay; what key is it in?"
When I said "it’s in G" Pete immediately went "G! Holy shit…" [laughter].
But Dan, trooper that he was, just said "no problem, I’ll do it" but there are some really high notes in there, especially in the bridge and the "they’re not fooling me" line. That line was just too much of a stretch for Dan so I slowed the tape down by the littlest of touches so he could hit the notes and he just made it.
But we got it down, we finished it off and it’s become a classic.
RM: It’s also a classic case of how uncertainty in the studio or "let’s have a bash at covering this" or "we need to record a single" can lead to a completely unforeseen success or hit.
MC: Yes, but the funny thing is when we released Love Hurts as a single in the UK – before we recorded the Hair of The Dog album – it didn’t do anything. We started to think we should have just waited and put it on Hair of the Dog as an album track but we went with another cover, Guilty, by Randy Newman, which is another great song. That’s how the European edition of Hair of the Dog was released, with Guilty on it.
But when Jerry Moss of A&M Records came over to hear the album, before we released it in the US, he said: "that’s a fantastic album but take Guilty off and put Love Hurts on it."
And that’s why Jerry was the head of a major record company because he could hear that Love Hurts could be a hit in America, and it was!
It went on to become a hit when the album was released there but it took a long time; it was out for about six months before it started to get attention but it went on to be a Top 10 record in the States.
And on the back of that we sold the album; Love Hurts sold Hair of the Dog.
Hair of the Dog, including the song Love Hurts, broke Nazareth in the US and Canada; No Mean City was the band's final album of the 70s and the first of two releases to feature guitarist Zal Cleminson
RM: Hair of the Dog was very successful album for you in the US; a platinum seller and the album that broke you in the States and Canada.
MC: And it still sells well to this day, but we don’t see anything from that because we sold our entire catalogue some time ago.
RM: You’re not the only band with that tale to tell. In fact that’s part of the reason a number of name bands have since re-recorded their hits, just to get a form of ownership or control back.
Def Leppard re-recorded a number of their songs a couple of years ago; they have since released a few digitally in an effort to get a better rate themselves than they would get from the label owned back catalogue.
MC: Did they really? That’s interesting. Our situation was a bit different though because we were genuinely trying to sell our catalogue to get some decent money in our hands, but it wasn’t happening.
Then we tried again and it still wasn’t happening. And eventually we were told that we just needed to sell it for whatever we could get because it was losing value every year, especially now with everything being digital.
RM: This leads to yet another issue for the artist – the digital royalties that go to the songwriters.
Many people think bands make decent money from their albums and songs being digitally downloaded but the reality is the composer/ songwriter gets about 8% of the download sale revenue from the iTunes of the world. It can vary though.
MC: And streaming sites are far worse. Sites like Spotify? What they pay out to the artist/ songwriter is shocking. That’s why Taylor Swift withdrew her catalogue from Spotify, as a mark of protest. Good on her.
RM: She took a bit of flak from some Spotify subscribers but that was from those who just don’t see, or don’t get, the problem.
Much like the Pay for Play issue we discussed earlier, it’s just another shafting for the artist and specifically the composer/ songwriter. In the great scheme of things the pay per streamed play pay-out is negligible.
MC: It’s next to nothing; practically zero. I think you have to have 100,000 plays to make even about eighty bucks… that’s just absurd!
RM: I think it’s actually worse than that. There was the claim about five years ago that Lady Ga Ga made just over £100 or about $170 from Spotify for one million plays of Poker Face.
There’s something broken and very wrong with a system where the musicians or artists who give you that music are the last in line to reap the rewards of their labour.
MC: I think what’s going to happen eventually is someone is going to have to come up with some kind of encryption where you won’t be able to download a song illegally, or at least won’t be able to copy or play it.
Someone has to be able to do that in the near future and not just for music – the film industry is hurting like crazy through illegal copying, TV companies, HBO with Game of Thrones… they are all losing an absolute fortune. So something has to be done, someone has to come up with some rock solid digital encryption to counter the piracy and the illegal copying of someone’s product.
RM: Well, there are some incredibly computer-smart cookies out there…
MC: Of course there are and can you imagine the money you would make? I really think that’s the only solution now because, as I said, it’s industry wide – the whole entertainment industry is suffering – the music industry, the movie industry, the TV industry.
And now there’s this Periscope App, where you can stream yourself live, with your phone, to your friends.
So in effect you can video yourself live and immediately broadcast it but that means you could also, in theory, video a live football game for example and broadcast it out to your mates.
So live sports events on an official pay-to-view channel? Forget it!
RM: If something isn’t done to limit what we can do with technology, or are allowed to do with technology, this could be the start of the end of making or distributing music as we know it. A true paradigm shift, although you could argue that’s already well underway.
Which leads to the obvious question of whether you have ever thought "is it even worth it?"
MC: I wouldn’t stop. I do it for the fans and fortunately I’m still fit and healthy enough to go out and play shows; I really enjoy that. But with the unpredictability of album sales playing live is also, basically, my only source of income.
And we might get a little bit of merchandise sold at the gigs because, luckily for us, they haven’t managed to make the digital t-shirt yet [laughter].
RM: Well I’m delighted and pleased you can, and are, still producing new music and getting out there in the live environment – and I’m still hopeful SOLO will see the light of day and find an outlet.
MC: I hope so but either way I count myself lucky, because we came through when the music scene was really at its best, certainly for rock music and bands like Nazareth. There was a lot of great music out there and it was selling well too, but now? Even the listening experience has changed dramatically.
The worst thing that ever happened was the scrapping of vinyl, or bands and labels deciding to stop releasing on vinyl.
RM: I doubt you will get any sort of argument from anyone of an age or even a lot of the younger or new generation of music lovers who are starting to see – or more accurately hear – the merit of vinyl.
There were more than nine million vinyl sales in 2014 and that was just in the States; based on first quarter sales 2015 will probably surpass that. There’s a genuine resurgence.
MC: That’s great; I’m really pleased that vinyl is making a comeback. That really is good news.
Of course it’s not a problem to copy that either; you get yourself a deck with a USB port and you can copy your vinyl to MP3 and play your authentic vinyl digitally! [laughs]
RM: True, but the vinyl listening experience is also in resurgence, combating the sterile audio and isolated listening of tiny ear-phones and an MP3 player.
Record shops stocking vinyl are on the rise and there's the opportunity for such shops to organise vinyl nights, where a crowd of music lovers get together to play a specific vinyl record and discuss or review it.
MC: That’s such a great outlet for vinyl and the vinyl listening experience, but you’re not ever going to get major sales through vinyl – I don’t think there’s ever going to be platinum sales for a vinyl record again – but nevertheless it’s another way of selling your music and getting together to listen to an album.
But to tell you the truth, I can’t remember when I last sat down and played a whole album because most of the music that’s coming out now, on CD or iTunes? Forget about it.
What I tend to do now is when I hear a song or a single I like I buy that track and not the album, because there will be so much filler.
The record companies kind of shot themselves in the foot over here by charging around seventeen dollars for a CD – and when you’re talking about a CD where there are one or two great songs and the rest is filler? You’re going to buy the individual tracks on iTunes; playing the rest of the songs or playing the rest of the CD would just be a waste of electricity to be honest with you [laughter].
RM: Let’s take a break from the changing times of the music world and jump back to an album of no filler.
No Mean City, Nazareth’s last album of the 70s, is one of the band’s finest ever releases.
It was followed, in quite a musical contrast, by Malice In Wonderland, the band’s first album of the 80s.
Both albums featured guitarist Zal Cleminson, ex of The Sensational Alex Harvey Band. Can you recall the reasons for bringing Zal in?
MC: I asked him to join, it was simple as that. In Nazareth I was producing, doing a lot of the writing and was the only guitar player; I thought it would be nice to have somebody that I respect come in to help out.
And I really respect Zal Cleminson; he’s a fantastic player, a great musician and a songwriter.
And we all knew Zal, he was a local boy, but at that time he was driving taxis, which was an absolute sin.
So I asked Zal to come up and jam with us, which he did, and then I asked him if he’d like to work on the next album with us. We made No Mean City with Zal and I think that album is a stand-out Nazareth record.
RM: Hair of the Dog was very successful album for you in the US; a platinum seller and the album that broke you in the States and Canada.
MC: And it still sells well to this day, but we don’t see anything from that because we sold our entire catalogue some time ago.
RM: You’re not the only band with that tale to tell. In fact that’s part of the reason a number of name bands have since re-recorded their hits, just to get a form of ownership or control back.
Def Leppard re-recorded a number of their songs a couple of years ago; they have since released a few digitally in an effort to get a better rate themselves than they would get from the label owned back catalogue.
MC: Did they really? That’s interesting. Our situation was a bit different though because we were genuinely trying to sell our catalogue to get some decent money in our hands, but it wasn’t happening.
Then we tried again and it still wasn’t happening. And eventually we were told that we just needed to sell it for whatever we could get because it was losing value every year, especially now with everything being digital.
RM: This leads to yet another issue for the artist – the digital royalties that go to the songwriters.
Many people think bands make decent money from their albums and songs being digitally downloaded but the reality is the composer/ songwriter gets about 8% of the download sale revenue from the iTunes of the world. It can vary though.
MC: And streaming sites are far worse. Sites like Spotify? What they pay out to the artist/ songwriter is shocking. That’s why Taylor Swift withdrew her catalogue from Spotify, as a mark of protest. Good on her.
RM: She took a bit of flak from some Spotify subscribers but that was from those who just don’t see, or don’t get, the problem.
Much like the Pay for Play issue we discussed earlier, it’s just another shafting for the artist and specifically the composer/ songwriter. In the great scheme of things the pay per streamed play pay-out is negligible.
MC: It’s next to nothing; practically zero. I think you have to have 100,000 plays to make even about eighty bucks… that’s just absurd!
RM: I think it’s actually worse than that. There was the claim about five years ago that Lady Ga Ga made just over £100 or about $170 from Spotify for one million plays of Poker Face.
There’s something broken and very wrong with a system where the musicians or artists who give you that music are the last in line to reap the rewards of their labour.
MC: I think what’s going to happen eventually is someone is going to have to come up with some kind of encryption where you won’t be able to download a song illegally, or at least won’t be able to copy or play it.
Someone has to be able to do that in the near future and not just for music – the film industry is hurting like crazy through illegal copying, TV companies, HBO with Game of Thrones… they are all losing an absolute fortune. So something has to be done, someone has to come up with some rock solid digital encryption to counter the piracy and the illegal copying of someone’s product.
RM: Well, there are some incredibly computer-smart cookies out there…
MC: Of course there are and can you imagine the money you would make? I really think that’s the only solution now because, as I said, it’s industry wide – the whole entertainment industry is suffering – the music industry, the movie industry, the TV industry.
And now there’s this Periscope App, where you can stream yourself live, with your phone, to your friends.
So in effect you can video yourself live and immediately broadcast it but that means you could also, in theory, video a live football game for example and broadcast it out to your mates.
So live sports events on an official pay-to-view channel? Forget it!
RM: If something isn’t done to limit what we can do with technology, or are allowed to do with technology, this could be the start of the end of making or distributing music as we know it. A true paradigm shift, although you could argue that’s already well underway.
Which leads to the obvious question of whether you have ever thought "is it even worth it?"
MC: I wouldn’t stop. I do it for the fans and fortunately I’m still fit and healthy enough to go out and play shows; I really enjoy that. But with the unpredictability of album sales playing live is also, basically, my only source of income.
And we might get a little bit of merchandise sold at the gigs because, luckily for us, they haven’t managed to make the digital t-shirt yet [laughter].
RM: Well I’m delighted and pleased you can, and are, still producing new music and getting out there in the live environment – and I’m still hopeful SOLO will see the light of day and find an outlet.
MC: I hope so but either way I count myself lucky, because we came through when the music scene was really at its best, certainly for rock music and bands like Nazareth. There was a lot of great music out there and it was selling well too, but now? Even the listening experience has changed dramatically.
The worst thing that ever happened was the scrapping of vinyl, or bands and labels deciding to stop releasing on vinyl.
RM: I doubt you will get any sort of argument from anyone of an age or even a lot of the younger or new generation of music lovers who are starting to see – or more accurately hear – the merit of vinyl.
There were more than nine million vinyl sales in 2014 and that was just in the States; based on first quarter sales 2015 will probably surpass that. There’s a genuine resurgence.
MC: That’s great; I’m really pleased that vinyl is making a comeback. That really is good news.
Of course it’s not a problem to copy that either; you get yourself a deck with a USB port and you can copy your vinyl to MP3 and play your authentic vinyl digitally! [laughs]
RM: True, but the vinyl listening experience is also in resurgence, combating the sterile audio and isolated listening of tiny ear-phones and an MP3 player.
Record shops stocking vinyl are on the rise and there's the opportunity for such shops to organise vinyl nights, where a crowd of music lovers get together to play a specific vinyl record and discuss or review it.
MC: That’s such a great outlet for vinyl and the vinyl listening experience, but you’re not ever going to get major sales through vinyl – I don’t think there’s ever going to be platinum sales for a vinyl record again – but nevertheless it’s another way of selling your music and getting together to listen to an album.
But to tell you the truth, I can’t remember when I last sat down and played a whole album because most of the music that’s coming out now, on CD or iTunes? Forget about it.
What I tend to do now is when I hear a song or a single I like I buy that track and not the album, because there will be so much filler.
The record companies kind of shot themselves in the foot over here by charging around seventeen dollars for a CD – and when you’re talking about a CD where there are one or two great songs and the rest is filler? You’re going to buy the individual tracks on iTunes; playing the rest of the songs or playing the rest of the CD would just be a waste of electricity to be honest with you [laughter].
RM: Let’s take a break from the changing times of the music world and jump back to an album of no filler.
No Mean City, Nazareth’s last album of the 70s, is one of the band’s finest ever releases.
It was followed, in quite a musical contrast, by Malice In Wonderland, the band’s first album of the 80s.
Both albums featured guitarist Zal Cleminson, ex of The Sensational Alex Harvey Band. Can you recall the reasons for bringing Zal in?
MC: I asked him to join, it was simple as that. In Nazareth I was producing, doing a lot of the writing and was the only guitar player; I thought it would be nice to have somebody that I respect come in to help out.
And I really respect Zal Cleminson; he’s a fantastic player, a great musician and a songwriter.
And we all knew Zal, he was a local boy, but at that time he was driving taxis, which was an absolute sin.
So I asked Zal to come up and jam with us, which he did, and then I asked him if he’d like to work on the next album with us. We made No Mean City with Zal and I think that album is a stand-out Nazareth record.
MC: With Malice in Wonderland however, things went kind of sideways. I had produced the last few Nazareth records, and I produced No Mean City, but Jeff Baxter produced Malice in Wonderland.
Now, it’s a great record – there are some fantastic songs on Malice and some great performances – but for me, having been the band’s producer and knowing what I wanted to hear, it was not Nazareth.
It was almost like we were another band when we recorded that album. We didn’t have the power and it didn’t have the energy we were known for; I was deeply disappointed in that record.
RM: It’s interesting to hear your views on Malice because as a fan I hear what I would describe as another facet of Nazareth; a more polished and softer model if you will.
But, I take your point and the end result was an AOR’d to the hilt album that was clearly aimed at the American market.
MC: That’s absolutely right and the bigger problem was it alienated our core fan-base. It sold fairly well but I’ve since spoken to a lot of fans who bought Malice that have told me they were very disappointed with it.
Consequently they didn’t buy the next one and it was all downhill from there.
RM: As regards sales, success and 80s compared to 70s album quality that’s probably true, but I see it more as peaks and troughs after No Mean City.
For example I have a soft spot and fondness for the 2XS and Sound Elixir albums of the early 80s when guitarist Billy Rankin was in the band...
MC: 2XS was okay, but I still didn’t think it had that metal edge we used to have, or was rock enough for a Nazareth album. And it was all over the place stylistically.
RM: That I agree with; there were a myriad of influences on that album…
MC: And I had a problem with that – and I think, again, a lot of our fans had a problem with that, too.
You don’t hear AC/DC doing that and you never heard Led Zeppelin doing that; think of all the great, hard rock bands – you never hear any of them go off at a tangent. Or such a tangent.
I mean we weren’t the Beatles! [laughs]
RM: But then other than the Beatles, who is, or was…
MC: Yes, but you know what I mean. I used to admire the Beatles because in their later years every song would be different but that’s not what we were about.
We tried that; our first two albums were a bit like that, especially Exercises. We thought we had a great song there, a great country song here, an orchestral based song followed by a folk song and then a hard rock song… but that didn’t sell worth a shit! [laughs].
But then Roger Glover came in as producer for Razamanaz and said "this is what you do and this is how you do it" and we had a great run of albums in the 70s with Roger as producer.
Even after Roger stopped producing us – at our request, because we had outgrown him by that point – we continued to have successful albums that made Gold status and were selling like hot cakes.
Then we got to Malice in Wonderland and the bottom fell right out of it.
RM: To this day I can’t put my finger on why I like 2XS so much but it probably has a lot to do with the breadth of styles that, ironically, are the very reasons you have a problem with it.
By the same token Sound Elixir, a much lighter and in places experimental album, is probably another that’s not one of your favourites but I rate it quite highly because it was that little bit different.
MC: On Sound Elixir we started to play around with samplers and drum machines and a couple of great songs did come out of that but, again, it just wasn’t what we were about.
We continued that experimentation with songs like Party Down on the next album, The Catch, but it didn’t work. The rhythm section, Darrell and Pete, they weren’t used to playing with machines so it was uncomfortable for them; consequently a lot of things we did in the eighties suffered for it.
But The Catch did have a couple of great Nazareth songs – This Month’s Messiah had some of our old power and energy and we were still coming up with great covers like Road to Nowhere.
RM: That’s a great version of the Carole King song. From all you’ve just said, I’m sensing some regrets about how the band went about their musical business in the 1980s...
MC: I have a lot of regrets about it but I had as much of a say in what we did as anyone else and I went along with it. I’m not blaming anyone in the band for what we did or what we produced – and I was always the one pushing the band and pushing that envelope, trying to get us to move forward while still being Nazareth.
So I’m as much to blame as anybody, along with the producers – I didn’t produce any of the 80s albums except for Sound Elixir – we started using outside producers and I don’t think it really happened for us.
RM: By the time you got to Snakes ‘N’ Ladders, which was released early in 1989, there was general band unhappiness in the studio. I recall you saying that the band probably shouldn’t have even been in the studio, such was the situation?
MC: No, we shouldn’t, because there was too much emotional turmoil in the band by that point; the last place we should have been was in a studio. We should have been outside of that environment, trying to sort our lives out, not in a studio trying to make a record.
RM: Was it label pressure to get another album out?
MC: That was part of it but the band also wanted to get the album out.
RM: And out it came, and out of Nazareth came Manny Charlton in 1990.
You released your first album, Drool, in 1997 and have gone on to release a further nine solo or Manny Charlton Band albums. You also featured on the debut album of From Behind, with Nicky Moore on vocals.
The remarkable and unfortunate thing is there are a lot of rock fans out there who don’t realise you have such a large body of post-Nazareth work, thus missing out on some great material and some great albums...
MC: Thank you; I really appreciate your comments. The thing about all those albums is I enjoyed making them, primarily because I could record them myself and not have to be answerable to anybody.
I was producing them myself too, so I didn’t have three other guys to convince (laughs) and the way I looked at it was they were going to stand or fall on my shoulders.
If they didn’t do anything, then that was my fault; I couldn’t blame anybody else.
RM: True, but a problem for many artists once associated with a name or classic rock band is, that, without that name behind you – or having become disassociated with that name – getting good quality product promoted and making people aware of it becomes all the more difficult.
MC: Well that’s the thing, because what I didn’t realise at the time was I didn’t just walk away from a band, I walked away from a brand…
RM: That’s just how I describe the re-imagined classic rock situation in the 21st century.
We are no longer in an age of classic rock bands we are now in the business of classic rock brands – there's a huge significance in name, or name ownership, certainly in terms of fan-base interest and ticket sales.
MC: And that’s the very situation I’m in right now. I enjoy recording new music but as I said earlier although I love to play for the fans performing live is my source of income, otherwise I’d be broke.
I’m nearly broke as it is and that’s because – as I’ve since found out to my cost – I can’t use the name.
RM: This goes back to 2008, when you went out for a short time as "Nazareth with Manny Charlton," or some such billing?
MC: Yes, but that was my mistake. I had been told that we would be put out there on shows as Manny Charlton, but with "ex of Nazareth" billing, which would presumably help sell tickets or get more interest.
But what actually happened was we were put out there as "Nazareth, featuring Manny Charlton."
RM: Shit. Huge difference…
MC: Yep, and that blew the friggin’ lid off everything.
RM: There are dozens of similar, notable name examples; Martin Turner's Wishbone Ash recently had to change their name to "Martin Turner Plays the Music of Wishbone Ash."
It's very changed days from the All For One And One For All era of rock and roll…
MC: It is. What I have to do now is go out as "Manny Charlton formerly of Nazareth."
That’s a legal requirement but I can play the Nazareth numbers live; the band don’t have a hold on the performances of those songs. I wrote, contributed to, or produced most of the songs that I play live.
RM: There are the fans who champion the name, no matter who is in the band, because for them it’s all about hearing the classic material.
Then there’s the other view, where it’s about the musicians who created the music and without whom – or at least the influential members or musicians who were integral to the band’s success, sound or direction – it can’t be anything but a different beast.
MC: I agree completely, you’re exactly right.
And as regards the latter, that’s why Led Zeppelin packed it in; they knew it could never be the same.
RM: And to be fair to Zeppelin their reunions have been ultra-rare and for very specific reasons – Live Aid, the Atlantic Records 40th Anniversary set, the Ahmet Ertegun Tribute Concert.
But for the other bands, or those touring more as a Greatest Hits franchise? Fair play to them; there's a market for that and they have to make a living and pay the bills just like the rest of us...
MC: Absolutely, and I had no problems whatsoever with the boys going out as Nazareth, even when it became just Dan and Pete as the original members because, well, it’s Dan and Pete!
That’s especially true of Dan; he was always the focal point of the band for me – but then the vocalist usually does end up as the main focus of any band.
But when Dan retired, because he wasn’t able to tour any more? That’s pushing it a bit for me; that’s stretching it a little.
But there’s obviously still a fan-base there and Nazareth have been touring solidly since I left; in fact they’ve really never stopped! And, as you say, they have to make a living.
Now, it’s a great record – there are some fantastic songs on Malice and some great performances – but for me, having been the band’s producer and knowing what I wanted to hear, it was not Nazareth.
It was almost like we were another band when we recorded that album. We didn’t have the power and it didn’t have the energy we were known for; I was deeply disappointed in that record.
RM: It’s interesting to hear your views on Malice because as a fan I hear what I would describe as another facet of Nazareth; a more polished and softer model if you will.
But, I take your point and the end result was an AOR’d to the hilt album that was clearly aimed at the American market.
MC: That’s absolutely right and the bigger problem was it alienated our core fan-base. It sold fairly well but I’ve since spoken to a lot of fans who bought Malice that have told me they were very disappointed with it.
Consequently they didn’t buy the next one and it was all downhill from there.
RM: As regards sales, success and 80s compared to 70s album quality that’s probably true, but I see it more as peaks and troughs after No Mean City.
For example I have a soft spot and fondness for the 2XS and Sound Elixir albums of the early 80s when guitarist Billy Rankin was in the band...
MC: 2XS was okay, but I still didn’t think it had that metal edge we used to have, or was rock enough for a Nazareth album. And it was all over the place stylistically.
RM: That I agree with; there were a myriad of influences on that album…
MC: And I had a problem with that – and I think, again, a lot of our fans had a problem with that, too.
You don’t hear AC/DC doing that and you never heard Led Zeppelin doing that; think of all the great, hard rock bands – you never hear any of them go off at a tangent. Or such a tangent.
I mean we weren’t the Beatles! [laughs]
RM: But then other than the Beatles, who is, or was…
MC: Yes, but you know what I mean. I used to admire the Beatles because in their later years every song would be different but that’s not what we were about.
We tried that; our first two albums were a bit like that, especially Exercises. We thought we had a great song there, a great country song here, an orchestral based song followed by a folk song and then a hard rock song… but that didn’t sell worth a shit! [laughs].
But then Roger Glover came in as producer for Razamanaz and said "this is what you do and this is how you do it" and we had a great run of albums in the 70s with Roger as producer.
Even after Roger stopped producing us – at our request, because we had outgrown him by that point – we continued to have successful albums that made Gold status and were selling like hot cakes.
Then we got to Malice in Wonderland and the bottom fell right out of it.
RM: To this day I can’t put my finger on why I like 2XS so much but it probably has a lot to do with the breadth of styles that, ironically, are the very reasons you have a problem with it.
By the same token Sound Elixir, a much lighter and in places experimental album, is probably another that’s not one of your favourites but I rate it quite highly because it was that little bit different.
MC: On Sound Elixir we started to play around with samplers and drum machines and a couple of great songs did come out of that but, again, it just wasn’t what we were about.
We continued that experimentation with songs like Party Down on the next album, The Catch, but it didn’t work. The rhythm section, Darrell and Pete, they weren’t used to playing with machines so it was uncomfortable for them; consequently a lot of things we did in the eighties suffered for it.
But The Catch did have a couple of great Nazareth songs – This Month’s Messiah had some of our old power and energy and we were still coming up with great covers like Road to Nowhere.
RM: That’s a great version of the Carole King song. From all you’ve just said, I’m sensing some regrets about how the band went about their musical business in the 1980s...
MC: I have a lot of regrets about it but I had as much of a say in what we did as anyone else and I went along with it. I’m not blaming anyone in the band for what we did or what we produced – and I was always the one pushing the band and pushing that envelope, trying to get us to move forward while still being Nazareth.
So I’m as much to blame as anybody, along with the producers – I didn’t produce any of the 80s albums except for Sound Elixir – we started using outside producers and I don’t think it really happened for us.
RM: By the time you got to Snakes ‘N’ Ladders, which was released early in 1989, there was general band unhappiness in the studio. I recall you saying that the band probably shouldn’t have even been in the studio, such was the situation?
MC: No, we shouldn’t, because there was too much emotional turmoil in the band by that point; the last place we should have been was in a studio. We should have been outside of that environment, trying to sort our lives out, not in a studio trying to make a record.
RM: Was it label pressure to get another album out?
MC: That was part of it but the band also wanted to get the album out.
RM: And out it came, and out of Nazareth came Manny Charlton in 1990.
You released your first album, Drool, in 1997 and have gone on to release a further nine solo or Manny Charlton Band albums. You also featured on the debut album of From Behind, with Nicky Moore on vocals.
The remarkable and unfortunate thing is there are a lot of rock fans out there who don’t realise you have such a large body of post-Nazareth work, thus missing out on some great material and some great albums...
MC: Thank you; I really appreciate your comments. The thing about all those albums is I enjoyed making them, primarily because I could record them myself and not have to be answerable to anybody.
I was producing them myself too, so I didn’t have three other guys to convince (laughs) and the way I looked at it was they were going to stand or fall on my shoulders.
If they didn’t do anything, then that was my fault; I couldn’t blame anybody else.
RM: True, but a problem for many artists once associated with a name or classic rock band is, that, without that name behind you – or having become disassociated with that name – getting good quality product promoted and making people aware of it becomes all the more difficult.
MC: Well that’s the thing, because what I didn’t realise at the time was I didn’t just walk away from a band, I walked away from a brand…
RM: That’s just how I describe the re-imagined classic rock situation in the 21st century.
We are no longer in an age of classic rock bands we are now in the business of classic rock brands – there's a huge significance in name, or name ownership, certainly in terms of fan-base interest and ticket sales.
MC: And that’s the very situation I’m in right now. I enjoy recording new music but as I said earlier although I love to play for the fans performing live is my source of income, otherwise I’d be broke.
I’m nearly broke as it is and that’s because – as I’ve since found out to my cost – I can’t use the name.
RM: This goes back to 2008, when you went out for a short time as "Nazareth with Manny Charlton," or some such billing?
MC: Yes, but that was my mistake. I had been told that we would be put out there on shows as Manny Charlton, but with "ex of Nazareth" billing, which would presumably help sell tickets or get more interest.
But what actually happened was we were put out there as "Nazareth, featuring Manny Charlton."
RM: Shit. Huge difference…
MC: Yep, and that blew the friggin’ lid off everything.
RM: There are dozens of similar, notable name examples; Martin Turner's Wishbone Ash recently had to change their name to "Martin Turner Plays the Music of Wishbone Ash."
It's very changed days from the All For One And One For All era of rock and roll…
MC: It is. What I have to do now is go out as "Manny Charlton formerly of Nazareth."
That’s a legal requirement but I can play the Nazareth numbers live; the band don’t have a hold on the performances of those songs. I wrote, contributed to, or produced most of the songs that I play live.
RM: There are the fans who champion the name, no matter who is in the band, because for them it’s all about hearing the classic material.
Then there’s the other view, where it’s about the musicians who created the music and without whom – or at least the influential members or musicians who were integral to the band’s success, sound or direction – it can’t be anything but a different beast.
MC: I agree completely, you’re exactly right.
And as regards the latter, that’s why Led Zeppelin packed it in; they knew it could never be the same.
RM: And to be fair to Zeppelin their reunions have been ultra-rare and for very specific reasons – Live Aid, the Atlantic Records 40th Anniversary set, the Ahmet Ertegun Tribute Concert.
But for the other bands, or those touring more as a Greatest Hits franchise? Fair play to them; there's a market for that and they have to make a living and pay the bills just like the rest of us...
MC: Absolutely, and I had no problems whatsoever with the boys going out as Nazareth, even when it became just Dan and Pete as the original members because, well, it’s Dan and Pete!
That’s especially true of Dan; he was always the focal point of the band for me – but then the vocalist usually does end up as the main focus of any band.
But when Dan retired, because he wasn’t able to tour any more? That’s pushing it a bit for me; that’s stretching it a little.
But there’s obviously still a fan-base there and Nazareth have been touring solidly since I left; in fact they’ve really never stopped! And, as you say, they have to make a living.
Four young lads from Dunfermline Play 'n' the Game of rock 'n' roll in the 70s
(Pete Agnew, the late Darrell Sweet (d. 1999), Dan McCafferty and Manny Charlton)
RM: While you may not be in Nazareth any more you did help form another cracking little band about ten years ago called From Behind, the raw and bluesy outfit that featured Nicky Moore on vocals.
I love the energy that comes off of Game Over, the one album you did with the band. Some great tracks, too.
MC: I also produced that album and yes, there were some great tracks on there.
We had some great Swedish guys playing on it, too. We had a great rhythm section and three guitarists in the band – Fredrik Borg, Mikael Fassberg and me. Mikael is a great guitarist – he went on to play with the Swedish rock band Bonafide who became quite successful, but he left them a couple of years ago.
And Nicky did a fantastic job vocally.
RM: I’ve always had a lot of time for Nicky – when he joined Samson the band morphed from New Wave of British Heavy Metal to being a great blues rock outfit.
I had high hopes for Paul Samson and Nicky but it wasn’t to be. Great set of pipes though.
MC: Great singer; it was a good album to be part of.
(Pete Agnew, the late Darrell Sweet (d. 1999), Dan McCafferty and Manny Charlton)
RM: While you may not be in Nazareth any more you did help form another cracking little band about ten years ago called From Behind, the raw and bluesy outfit that featured Nicky Moore on vocals.
I love the energy that comes off of Game Over, the one album you did with the band. Some great tracks, too.
MC: I also produced that album and yes, there were some great tracks on there.
We had some great Swedish guys playing on it, too. We had a great rhythm section and three guitarists in the band – Fredrik Borg, Mikael Fassberg and me. Mikael is a great guitarist – he went on to play with the Swedish rock band Bonafide who became quite successful, but he left them a couple of years ago.
And Nicky did a fantastic job vocally.
RM: I’ve always had a lot of time for Nicky – when he joined Samson the band morphed from New Wave of British Heavy Metal to being a great blues rock outfit.
I had high hopes for Paul Samson and Nicky but it wasn’t to be. Great set of pipes though.
MC: Great singer; it was a good album to be part of.
RM: More lately there was another great band put together – specifically the Manny Charlton Band that was responsible for Hellacious, released in 2013. That album is, for me, your strongest solo work to date.
MC: Thank you, it’s a really good record and, as you said, it had a great band behind it with some fantastic vocals from Robin DeLorenzo.
RM: Oh Robin was the icing on the cake for me…
MC: What a job she did – and she did that job at the drop of a hat because we were still looking for a singer when we were due to go in to the studio! We had a couple of people in mind for vocals but they didn’t want to do it or our schedules didn’t match. But how it all started was through a guy in Dallas called Gary McGrath.
Gary is a music producer who has his own label and he had been at me, and at me – and at me again [laughs] – to do a record with him.
But I had said "I don’t have a band Gary; I haven’t put anyone together for a band album."
"That doesn’t matter," says Gary "I’ll put a band together for you we’ll go out to Los Angeles to record."
Which sounds great but of course I’m asking "and just who is going to be in this band, Gary?"
To which he replies "well Tim Bogert for a start."
So I said "count me in!" [laughs]. Because there is a bass player!
RM: As regards putting together a band that's not too shabby a start, is it?
MC: No it certainly isn’t and then Gary got Walfredo Reyes Jr, who has played with Santana and more lately Chicago, amongst so many others. Walfredo is a fantastic drummer and percussionist.
So with that rhythm section in place I couldn’t say no but we also had a number of great guest players who came in to play on a couple of tracks including Vivian Campbell from Def Leppard and Steve Adler, the ex Guns N’ Roses drummer.
Robin came in at the eleventh hour but she did a fantastic job on that record. She was asked to do material that was very hard work, vocally, but she was great.
RM: It was Robin's vocal versatility that knocked me out. For example she delivered a raw and intense vocal on the grunge-metal themed Family, a song that has appeared on a couple of your other albums, but then she’s putting a lovely vocal down on Zal Cleminson’s Hearts Grown Cold, one of Nazareth’s finest ballads.
MC: Robin did a great job on those songs. Family is very Soundgarden in style and it’s from that era.
I wrote that song in the 90s with singer Neil Miller; Neil is from Kelty just outside of Dunfermline and he sang on my first solo album, Drool. We also did a version with Nicky on vocals for the Game Over album.
Robin’s vocal on Hearts Grown Cold is absolutely stand-out. She made that song her own.
MC: Thank you, it’s a really good record and, as you said, it had a great band behind it with some fantastic vocals from Robin DeLorenzo.
RM: Oh Robin was the icing on the cake for me…
MC: What a job she did – and she did that job at the drop of a hat because we were still looking for a singer when we were due to go in to the studio! We had a couple of people in mind for vocals but they didn’t want to do it or our schedules didn’t match. But how it all started was through a guy in Dallas called Gary McGrath.
Gary is a music producer who has his own label and he had been at me, and at me – and at me again [laughs] – to do a record with him.
But I had said "I don’t have a band Gary; I haven’t put anyone together for a band album."
"That doesn’t matter," says Gary "I’ll put a band together for you we’ll go out to Los Angeles to record."
Which sounds great but of course I’m asking "and just who is going to be in this band, Gary?"
To which he replies "well Tim Bogert for a start."
So I said "count me in!" [laughs]. Because there is a bass player!
RM: As regards putting together a band that's not too shabby a start, is it?
MC: No it certainly isn’t and then Gary got Walfredo Reyes Jr, who has played with Santana and more lately Chicago, amongst so many others. Walfredo is a fantastic drummer and percussionist.
So with that rhythm section in place I couldn’t say no but we also had a number of great guest players who came in to play on a couple of tracks including Vivian Campbell from Def Leppard and Steve Adler, the ex Guns N’ Roses drummer.
Robin came in at the eleventh hour but she did a fantastic job on that record. She was asked to do material that was very hard work, vocally, but she was great.
RM: It was Robin's vocal versatility that knocked me out. For example she delivered a raw and intense vocal on the grunge-metal themed Family, a song that has appeared on a couple of your other albums, but then she’s putting a lovely vocal down on Zal Cleminson’s Hearts Grown Cold, one of Nazareth’s finest ballads.
MC: Robin did a great job on those songs. Family is very Soundgarden in style and it’s from that era.
I wrote that song in the 90s with singer Neil Miller; Neil is from Kelty just outside of Dunfermline and he sang on my first solo album, Drool. We also did a version with Nicky on vocals for the Game Over album.
Robin’s vocal on Hearts Grown Cold is absolutely stand-out. She made that song her own.
RM: Robin just nailed Hearts Grown Cold. In fact that's probably the best version of the song I’ve heard.
MC: It’s the best version of that song I’ve ever done or heard and the arrangement I did for it is the way I always wanted to do the song. I never wanted the additional backing singers and all the soul styled "baby don't you know that your heart's grown cold" stuff at the end. So we cut all that out.
RM: Just stripped it down to its core in effect; a baring of the soul delivery.
MC: Yes, exactly that.
RM: And it’s one of the highlights of what is a very solid album. I tried to get a push of interest over here but it all returns to the topic of getting the word out and making people aware…
MC: Well it’s out there on iTunes if folks want to get it and while it sold some copies the label was a small independent, so when it didn’t sell a million right away… [laughs]
RM: Which brings us back to the plight of the non-branded Independent artist and ensuring SOLO isn’t released without some solid backing, promotion and distribution.
Looking positively at SOLO, it sounds like that album will have the same strength of musical diversity that Hellacious did.
MC: That’s the hope. We have a couple of Nazareth numbers in there with the newer material and there’s a really interesting song I did with a Spanish singer called Randy Lopez.
It all started as an instrumental piece of music I had written on guitar but when I met Randy in Spain I thought the track might really suit his voice.
So a little later I sent him the song over and lo and behold, he sent it back with his vocal on it – he sung it in Spanish and now we have this very different but beautiful song called She Dances in Cordoba.
RM: Lovely atmosphere created by that song; people can hear it by going to your ReverbNation Playlist page where they can also check out some of your other material, including the instrumental version of Cordoba.
MC: There are a couple of other instrumental numbers on there too – in fact now that I’ve pretty much completed the tracks for SOLO I’m toying with the idea of putting together an instrumental album.
And it certainly wouldn’t be a run-of-the-mill rock guitar player jerks off instrumental album; it would be very musical, very different. It’s definitely something I’m considering.
As I said there's a few other instrumentals on my ReverbNation page if people want to get a flavour.
RM: You have always brought different styles and tones to your six-string instrumental work, which leads me to ask, as we start to wrap up, what guitars get the Manny Charlton seal of approval.
I know you still have a Tele, a Strat and a fair old collection from which to choose your weapon...
MC: Yes I do, and they’re all great. Every guitar I have I really like – or I wouldn’t have it! [laughs].
But I do tend to find myself going back to the Les Pauls. I have a couple of Les Paul guitars but I’m also an endorser of ESP who make great guitars. They really are fantastic guitars for the money and I’m very happy to endorse them.
The Telecaster and Stratocaster guitars I’ll probably keep forever, because they are also really good guitars.
I don’t play them all the time but when I need them it’s nice to know they are there; I like the sounds I can get from them and the different tonalities, especially through different amps.
Which is why there are so many damn guitars and amps stacked up here in the studio! [laughs].
RM: And long may that studio be echoing to the sounds of Manny Charlton recording new music.
Manny, it’s been a pleasure to catch up and talk so extensively about the changing times – and if that’s not a cue for a "Then and Now" audio outro I don’t know what is…
MC: Thank you so much Ross, it's been lovely talking to you. Cheers!
MC: It’s the best version of that song I’ve ever done or heard and the arrangement I did for it is the way I always wanted to do the song. I never wanted the additional backing singers and all the soul styled "baby don't you know that your heart's grown cold" stuff at the end. So we cut all that out.
RM: Just stripped it down to its core in effect; a baring of the soul delivery.
MC: Yes, exactly that.
RM: And it’s one of the highlights of what is a very solid album. I tried to get a push of interest over here but it all returns to the topic of getting the word out and making people aware…
MC: Well it’s out there on iTunes if folks want to get it and while it sold some copies the label was a small independent, so when it didn’t sell a million right away… [laughs]
RM: Which brings us back to the plight of the non-branded Independent artist and ensuring SOLO isn’t released without some solid backing, promotion and distribution.
Looking positively at SOLO, it sounds like that album will have the same strength of musical diversity that Hellacious did.
MC: That’s the hope. We have a couple of Nazareth numbers in there with the newer material and there’s a really interesting song I did with a Spanish singer called Randy Lopez.
It all started as an instrumental piece of music I had written on guitar but when I met Randy in Spain I thought the track might really suit his voice.
So a little later I sent him the song over and lo and behold, he sent it back with his vocal on it – he sung it in Spanish and now we have this very different but beautiful song called She Dances in Cordoba.
RM: Lovely atmosphere created by that song; people can hear it by going to your ReverbNation Playlist page where they can also check out some of your other material, including the instrumental version of Cordoba.
MC: There are a couple of other instrumental numbers on there too – in fact now that I’ve pretty much completed the tracks for SOLO I’m toying with the idea of putting together an instrumental album.
And it certainly wouldn’t be a run-of-the-mill rock guitar player jerks off instrumental album; it would be very musical, very different. It’s definitely something I’m considering.
As I said there's a few other instrumentals on my ReverbNation page if people want to get a flavour.
RM: You have always brought different styles and tones to your six-string instrumental work, which leads me to ask, as we start to wrap up, what guitars get the Manny Charlton seal of approval.
I know you still have a Tele, a Strat and a fair old collection from which to choose your weapon...
MC: Yes I do, and they’re all great. Every guitar I have I really like – or I wouldn’t have it! [laughs].
But I do tend to find myself going back to the Les Pauls. I have a couple of Les Paul guitars but I’m also an endorser of ESP who make great guitars. They really are fantastic guitars for the money and I’m very happy to endorse them.
The Telecaster and Stratocaster guitars I’ll probably keep forever, because they are also really good guitars.
I don’t play them all the time but when I need them it’s nice to know they are there; I like the sounds I can get from them and the different tonalities, especially through different amps.
Which is why there are so many damn guitars and amps stacked up here in the studio! [laughs].
RM: And long may that studio be echoing to the sounds of Manny Charlton recording new music.
Manny, it’s been a pleasure to catch up and talk so extensively about the changing times – and if that’s not a cue for a "Then and Now" audio outro I don’t know what is…
MC: Thank you so much Ross, it's been lovely talking to you. Cheers!
Ross Muir
Muirsical Conversation with Manny Charlton
April 2015
Footnote/ Update: SOLO was released in 2016 on Atom Records; CD availability/ distribution is only in the US by purchasing through Atom Records or Amazon.com, etc.
Photo credit (Manny Charlton on stage): © Fernando Fabela/ Fernando Fabela Photography
Nazareth image from Play 'n' The Game album cover (1976)
Audio tracks presented to accompany the above article and to promote the work of the artist.
No infringement of copyright is intended.
Muirsical Conversation with Manny Charlton
April 2015
Footnote/ Update: SOLO was released in 2016 on Atom Records; CD availability/ distribution is only in the US by purchasing through Atom Records or Amazon.com, etc.
Photo credit (Manny Charlton on stage): © Fernando Fabela/ Fernando Fabela Photography
Nazareth image from Play 'n' The Game album cover (1976)
Audio tracks presented to accompany the above article and to promote the work of the artist.
No infringement of copyright is intended.