FabricationsHQ - Putting the Words to the Music
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  • Muirsical Conversations...
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3 Times Charmed
Muirsical Conversation with Robert Berry
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At the top of 2021 Californian singer, song writer, multi-instrumentalist and producer Robert Berry released 3.2 Third Impression, the final part of a trilogy that started in 1988 with The Power Of Three by sadly short-lived AOR-prog crossover band 3 (featuring Berry, Keith Emerson and Carl Palmer).

However 3 and The Power Of Three gained a new audience, and a larger retrospective appreciation, following the 2015 release of Live Boston ’88.
That led to talk of a 3 reunion between Robert Berry & Keith Emerson, which in turn became the seeds of an initially collaborative album.

Following the tragic passing of Keith Emerson in 2016 however Robert Berry was left to record and perform the album solo, subsequently releasing The Rules Have Changed under the 3.2 moniker on Frontiers Records in 2018.

3.2 Third Impression, featuring the last song Robert Berry & Keith Emerson worked on (and one of Emerson’s last ever song writing contributions) completes the 3 cycle.

But there’s much more to Robert Berry than 3 and 3.2.

Following stints with Californian based groups Hush and The Robert Berry Band came the opportunity with 3.
After the demise of 3 in 1989 a solo artist and production career beckoned, intertwined with contributions to a series of classic prog band tribute albums, Alliance (featuring Berry, guitarist Gary Pihl and drummer David Lauser) and, these last twenty-five years, bassist for the Greg Kihn Band (Berry also co-wrote, produced and played on 2017's Rekihndled, the first all-new GKB studio album in over 20 years).

Add in a short time fronting Ambrosia, working with Steve Howe in GTR (replacing Steve Hackett) for a relaunch that sadly never materialised, some soundtrack work, project groups All 41 and December People (a cleverly conceived covers band that record Christmas songs in the style of specific classic rock acts) and a prolific song writing regime, it’s a wonder Robert Berry has time for interviews.

But FabricationsHQ is very glad he did, given the lengthy and detailed interview that follows, ranging from in-depth discussion of Third Impression to many of his other projects/ albums and the personal, including the still painful loss of Keith Emerson, who wasn’t just a musical colleague of Robert Berry’s but a good friend.

Ross Muir: Third Impression brings to a conclusion the life cycle of 3/ 3.2 in powerful and impressive style.
It mixes the sound and progressive AOR style that a 21st century reboot of 3, featuring yourself and Keith Emerson, would have produced had Keith still been with us, as showcased on previous 3.2 album The Rules Have Changed.
Was it a challenge to channel that 3 sound one more time for this third and final instalment?  

Robert Berry: It’s interesting how it developed – and this happened with The Rules Have changed too.
I’m what I call a flow writer; things just seem to flow out of me. My motto is it’s easier to fix an idea than it is to get one, so put those ideas down!
I could write, for example, something like "the street is dirty today" although I never would – I mean how boring is that, right?
But that will change into something like "the streets of tomorrow are paved with the problems of today."
I’m sure you know the sort of thing I mean.

RM: I do, because I write the very same way – my own motto is just get it written.
Get it all on the page, or rather the computer screen; then start to block it out and shape it.

RB: Yes, exactly. Write it then fix it.
Both 3.2 albums sort of happened that way; they just kinda came out of me. Even the keyboard parts after losing Keith, that I then had to come up with – they came out of me from a place that I really have no idea about. It really felt that Keith was guiding me to do those parts...
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RB: I have to tell you though when it came to this new album, I actually didn’t want to do it.
After The Rules Have Changed I only had the one other song I wrote with Keith, that I didn’t use.
So I didn’t want to do another album; I just didn’t feel right about it.

RM: What changed your viewpoint?

RB: Frontiers Records wanted me to do another 3.2 album; they said to trust them because they release a lot of product and The Rules Have Changed did really well.
So I said I’d make a deal with them – if I can write seven songs that I think Keith would have been proud to have worked on, and that I am proud to say are somewhat in the style of what Keith and I set the parameters for on what became The Rules Have Changed, then I’ll do it.
I’d also finish off that last song I have, which was the nine-minute piece called Never. They said OK to that.
But, I also said that if I did do this, given I only have that one song left with Keith, this would be it; this would be the last 3 or 3.2 album from me
– because it really can’t be done alone, it really has to have something of Keith, or Carl, in it.
With that in mind I made a conscious effort to do half the album with the parameters Keith and I had laid out; the other half of the album was going to be more about what might I do next, on my own.

RM: That’s exactly what comes across. You open and close with Top Of The World and Never; those are two very powerful and purposeful long-form pieces that are, for me, the 3 that never happened classics.
But there are also songs and arrangements here that showcase the broad canvas strokes of Robert Berry as a solo artist; others mix and match both 3 and Robert Berry, in impressive fashion.

RB: That’s the reason Top Of The World starts with just an acoustic Celtic guitar, because I thought you know what? I’m going to make that statement right at the top.
My manager thought that would be a fantastic start too, because it might even shock some people 
– "what’s this? I was expecting keyboards!" [laughs] – but then it turns into this big, nine-minute progressive piece.
And then of course Never, which had to end the third album in this 3 and 3.2 trilogy, as I call it.
​
I also think Never is maybe the best song that 3 would have ever done, certainly since Desde La Vida on The Power Of Three album, had we stayed together.
And Never here has couple of meanings, including this can never happen again, for obvious reasons.
I have to say I appreciate what you said about those two pieces in your review, but I also have to tell you I was really worried about this album.
The day before release I was pacing up and down thinking "well, maybe I shouldn’t have done this" – I was just wondering what people were going to think, you know?

RM: That’s interesting and I get why you would be second guessing yourself.
But from my own point of view, as both a music fan and music critic – and major ELP and Keith Emerson fan since back in the day
– I believe you truly captured, on songs like the long-form pieces and a few others, what you, Keith and 3 could have accomplished together had fate and circumstance dictated otherwise.
Other tracks dovetail well while also pointing to where, as you just mentioned, you may be heading on your next project or solo album.
That in itself is progressive – in fact I don’t see or hear 3.2 Third Impression as a progressive rock album as much as an artist who is progressive in nature. 

RB: I really appreciate that. I can’t tell you how calmed down I’ve become through the interviews I’ve done about this album because a lot of them said we think this is better than The Rules Have Changed.
I didn’t expect that; I was so worried I was going to ruin the beautiful acceptance of what Keith and I had done.
When I look at some of the lyrics on The Rules Have Changed now, I realise where I was at then, losing Keith right in the middle of the project. That was really rough but it was like arms were wide open for that album.
So, I never expected what is around half the people I’ve spoken to, to like this one better; I really thought all of them would say "well it was a nice try, Robert" [laughs]
So I really appreciate what you’re saying; that means a lot to me.

RM: It’s genuine critical credit where credit’s due; I don’t follow the philosophy of mutual back slapping or Kings New Clothes reviewing.
If I think something has been released that’s lacking somewhere, or could have been better, or has clearly suffered from lack of quality control, I’ll make that clear in review and the reasoning behind it.
So when I tell you I believe Third Impression to be a better album than The Rules Have Changed – which was a very good album indeed 
– it’s because I mean just that; it’s not through any ingratiating PR attempts or artist bias.

RB: Oh I know you’re an honest reviewer and writer so, again, thank you.
But I have to tell you also that there hasn’t been a negative review for The Rules Have Changed or this new one yet – well, except one that was so outrageous I couldn’t really understand any of it [laughs]
– but I do take the negative reviews on board; I read them and I take them in.
Half of my thing about producing other artists, or working with other artists, is I have to understand what they believe and why they believe it before I can make an honest opinion of what I think they are capable of.

I’ve brought that to my whole life, whether that be politics or whatever other aspect – if you have a different political view, I need to know, or at least understand, why you believe that
– even if I think you are an idiot for believing it! [laughs].
So I take in any negative reviews, study them and wonder why that person may have thought that; a lot of times though it will be because they are actually into say, heavy metal and if keyboards are on an album it’s "oh no, no… that’s just wrong!" [laughs]

RM: Joking aside, you touch on a salient point – considered critical appraisal against being critical for the sake of it, or simply because you don’t like something.
I’m all for a critical piece if it tells you why a particular album, or single, or concert or whatever is below par or not the outstanding, awesome product others would have you believe.
Indeed many artists will, as you have just pointed out, happily take an honest and well-written critique over a glowing review done for PR points or to ingratiate the reviewer with the artist.
Those do not serve the artist well in the long run.

RB: That’s exactly it. Even if a criticism hurts, the next time that reviewer says they really like something you’ve done, you’re going to believe it even more.
A lot of writers want to get everything from everyone and not offend anyone so they get every favour, right? That's why I appreciate your honesty because I totally know you would tell me when to hang it up! [laughs]
That said I would love to do an interview with you if you said "you really let me down on this one Robert, and here's why."
I don't think I will let you down but I would have no problem with that conversation; I really wouldn't.
 
RM: Well I guess next album time will tell! [laughter]
I’ve mentioned the two long-form bookends on Third Impression but I want to give a shout out to some other songs, such as the film-noire and jazz-tinged Emotional Trigger, the short and sharp prog-punk of What Side You’re On and The Devil Of Liverpool, a sea-shanty in rock clothing with a progressive arrangement.
Then there’s the powerful ballad, A Bond Of Union, which I’d like to talk about once we’ve featured it…

RM: My mum passed to Covid-19 a year ago; she was one of the many Care Home casualties in the first wave of the pandemic here in the UK.
I hadn’t seen her for five weeks due to lockdown and inherently knew I would not see her again; I also made the decision there would be no attendance at the funeral.
The upshot was I had a complete disconnect with no emotional investment in her passing; to the degree I have yet to truly accept, or grieve.
But, on playing A Bond Of Union, through the solemn yet uplifting tones of the music and lyrics of familial loss, I finally got to resolve myself with her passing and reflect on that bond of union.

RB: I know people won’t be able to see tears when they read this but there are tears here.
I’m genuinely saddened by your story because while my own story isn’t Covid, it’s kind of the same, the way everything happened.
Also, here in the US, we’ve recently found out that New York, where it really hit hard, under-reported the kind of cases you mention by about half.
And it’s not just the fact that Covid kept us from funerals… what about High School graduations, what about kids who spend their childhoods at school and then couldn’t be together with their friends?
That’s really tough.

As regards family, I always wanted to be my dad. My dad had a band and my mom sang in that band; they toured all over the United States.
Then my dad had a music store; he sold Vox guitars and amps, which I love – for example I have a Vox bass, like The Nice used. I’m a big Vox fan!
So I always wanted to be like my dad but it was my mom who made me who I am; she’s the reason I’m speaking to you right now.
She made me practice my piano 
– and when I got so bored in Eighth Grade she got me jazz piano lessons and a little boogie-woogie, because she knew it would drag me in a little bit.
When I wanted to sing, she got me the singing teacher who was president of the music department of the College!

But what you said is lovely to hear, because you just never know about a song.
I thought the jazzy number you mentioned, Emotional Trigger, might get some comments like "well I kinda dig that but what a stupid style for this album" [laughs] but it was A Bond Of Union where I really thought people would say "oh, he’s doing a Phil Collins and getting all syrupy" but no-one did.
No-one accused me of that with this song. They really bought into it; they listened to it for what it really was.

RM: I’d also add that the classical themed, piano-led instrumental section helps put it on a whole different level from a typical power ballad; as does the song’s pathos, arrangement and lyrical sincerity.
People, as you say, seem to have bought in to the genuineness of the song and honesty and openness of the lyric; an appreciation of the maternal bond and "sacrifice made," to quote your own lyric.

RB: I believe there is a special bond between a guy and his mom; it trains us how to treat a woman for later years when you have a wife, or a girlfriend, or whoever – and how such relationships develop.
So when I sat down to write that song – and, again, I don’t know where they come from – the feelings were so deep.
I loved and worshipped my dad
– in fact I had anxiety for a couple of days after I lost him because I always felt if my dad was there I wouldn’t fail; I could take whatever chance because he was always there.
But with my mom it was this whole deep, emotional thing, which I felt when you were telling me your own story; that’s why it did bring tears.    
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       Robert Berry, a consummate crossover songwriter (from hard & melodic rock to AOR & prog) and true
       multi-instrumentalist, as accomplished on bass, synth keyboards, guitar and drums as he is on piano. 

​​RM: I’d like to jump all the way back to 1988 and the 3 album The Power Of Three.
You had Top 10 Billboard single success with the prog-framed AOR of Talkin’ Bout and a successful and acclaimed North American Tour followed, but the album itself wasn’t overly well received; it was also a little misunderstood.
Now, with crossover or commercial prog being more acceptable and on the back of the 2015 release Live Boston '88, the 3 album is viewed in a far better, reappraised light.

RB: I’d say a couple of things about that. Carl had done Asia, so he wasn’t criticised for doing it.
Keith had never really done that sort of thing though and I wasn’t Greg Lake; so that was two big problems right there.
The other problem was Geffen Records were grooming me to be a Bryan Adams meets Sting kinda artist – straight ahead rock like Bryan with some creativity, like Sting.
That was right up my alley at that point because prog was going out – orchestral styled pieces and long-form songs didn’t really have a chance – even guys like Genesis started doing some different stuff and got more commercial.
​
So the label had us use a few songs that I think are good songs – Runaway, Chains, You Do Or You Don’t.
But they are straight AOR songs; they are not like Lover To Lover or Talkin’ Bout that were designed for Keith, Carl and I to try and do this new AOR meets prog thing, much like, speaking ahead of time, The Rules Have Changed.
For that album Keith and I said let’s pay tribute to the past, with really good sound, but with a tougher beat, tougher songs and deeper lyrics with some meaning – that was our parameters.
The only thing we didn’t do was when Keith said "I want to use an orchestra on a lot of things."
I didn’t do that because he was gone by that time and I was also saying to myself "well, that ain’t gonna happen" [laughs] because we didn’t have the money for that!
But that was to be part of it too, within our parameters.

So, yeah, the 3 album was a little misunderstood but we got a huge new audience for Talkin’ Bout which, as you say, was Top 10 in the US charts. 

When we toured that song it went to radio in every city we played but by then it was too late; you just couldn’t fight against Guns N' Roses and the grungier rock that was just starting to come out – but the programme director of whatever radio station we were talking to at the time would tell us they were really glad that song was out there...
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RM: A few years before the concept of 3.2 took musical shape, you released the solo album The Dividing Line.
The progressive meets harder AOR rock of 1993’s Pilgrimage to a Point, which included songs that would have been on future 3 and GTR releases, remains your best known solo album but The Dividing Line is equally noteworthy.
More importantly, it’s your broadest styled solo album to date – to the extent that it could have been sub-titled This is Robert Berry.

RB: And the reason for that is Frontiers Records said to me "We really want you to do an album, but do it just the way you want to do it."
So I said I’d write them two songs, which will be a little like where I’m heading – a little deeper and with more going on – and I’ll just do what I do.
So I came up with a couple of songs, sent them over, and they came back to me and said "This is exactly what we wanted from you; please, let’s do the album!"
​
I enjoyed doing The Dividing Line; it sort of opened up the flood gates for me because instead of the record company twenty years before saying we want your Bryan Adams meets Sting, or 3 should have been this, or whatever, Frontiers said we want you to do exactly what you want to do; let’s see what you come up with. That was pretty big of them.

RM: It certainly was, as well as a testament to, and trust of, your songwriting skills.
I sincerely hope on your next solo album you are again given that scope and freedom to just be Robert Berry.

RB: I think that’s also true of a bit of Third Impression. I wanted to see if I could bring the people who liked the 3 and 3.2 music along with me, but I had to test that – like the beginning of Top Of The World, as we mentioned earlier.
I took a chance with that whole Celtic acoustic guitar intro because I was thinking "are they gonna listen through this kinda cool, acoustic section until they get to the actual song?" [laughs]
Same with Emotional Trigger – it was "will they actually listen through this jazz piece?"

RM: Emotional Trigger brings such great contrast. As I said earlier, it carries a great film-noire vibe.

RB: I must tell you, I tried to get Keith to do that piece with me about ten years ago, when I first wrote it – that song wasn’t a new write for Third Impression.
Keith called me back after I’d sent it over and said "that’s perfect the way it is; you don’t want me messing up the piano on that. It’s so open, and your voice with no vibrato; you should do more like that!" [laughs]
Of course I was trying, little by little, to bait him into doing an album with me although this was still a few years before the 3.2 idea came along. But he loved that piece; that’s why it’s on Third Impression.

RM: That’s a great story. Another much older song that makes its mark on Third Impression is a re-recording and reworking of Missing Piece; not everyone will know that first appeared as the title track of an Alliance album released back in 1999.

RB: I did that for one reason and one reason only – it’s one of my favourite songs and I want to play it on tour, because I felt the record company did a terrible job of promoting Alliance back then.
That album never really got a foothold. It was released, it was put out there and that was it.
So I didn’t want that piece of music to disappear, or those lyrics – even though I didn't have a tortured life, a lot of people do find themselves in those types of situation.
Also, around that point in time I found myself, song writing and vocal quality wise, figuring out how to write for me and what I cared about; letting it just flow out instead of thinking "oh, no-one’s gonna want to hear that."
So I decided I was going to write and say what’s on that song and just see what happens, because it’s from my heart and soul.

RB: Again though, like the intro to Top Of The World and Emotional Trigger, doing Missing Piece was a little risky because as you said, not everyone knows that song was on an Alliance album – I don’t even know if Frontiers know! [laughs]

RM: Well, they do now.


RB: Yeah, they’re gonna know now [laughs] but then they picked that track as the third video-song release from Third Impression so they are evidently behind the song.

RM: Talking of Alliance, the band put out their latest album, Fire And Grace, in 2019.
Alliance started as a fairly straight ahead AOR/rock band but, much like The Dividing Line, Fire And Grace features a wider musical palette; as such it's the strongest Alliance album to date.
It also sounds like this is a band who still get together every so often because they enjoy each other’s company and gel so well musically.    

RB: I’ve been told by a lot people they feel some of the best Alliance songs ever written are on that album.
It’s definitely the best work Gary Pihl, David Lauser and I have done together and you’re right, we always do get together; we don’t mail in Alliance – we work together at my Soundtek Studios.
In fact Gary is planning on coming here in June to do another album – he’s working on some Boston things and other stuff so it’s usually him we have to wait on. He’s also building me a guitar amp!

RM: Wow. But then I believe Gary is a smart technical cookie and not just an exceptionally good guitarist.

RB: Gary is a genius-level guy. When I was younger, I used to see him play in a club near me in a band called Crossfire; he had a little Campbell’s soup can on top of his amp.
I asked what it was and he said "that’s my distortion device, I built it myself" – and it’s in a soup can! [laughs]
He’s designed things with Tom Scholz, he’s the guy that fixed the Boston equipment, he’s done NAMM shows and presentations… he’s just something. So now he’s built this amp for himself and I said "I gotta have one!" By the time we get together I should have mine
– it should be shipping in a couple of weeks – and that Pihl Amp will be heading toward the new album!

RM: Well if the next one follows in the broader musical footsteps of Fire And Grace or songs such as the cinematic rock meets Bond Theme vibe of Uncertain, it's going to be well worth hearing...
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RM: From future Alliances to an intriguing and interesting past project.
In 2001 you wrote the music for what is, in effect, a soundtrack to Robert Jordan’s acclaimed, multi-book spanning fantasy series The Wheel of Time.
The Celtic meets folk meets Medieval instrumental style of the album made for a very good accompaniment, and musical commentary, to the books
– but how did that ever come about?

RB: Peter Morticelli, the President of Magna Carta Records, called me one day and said he wanted to make a soundtrack album to The Wheel of Time series; evidently Peter was way into the books.
I had done a couple of movie things before so I said "let me get a couple of the books and I’ll have a read."
Well, I got into about a chapter, stopped, and said to myself "there’s no way I can absorb all this; it’s a whole other world with all these characters" – it was incredible.
I knew I wouldn’t have the time nor, honestly, was it in my wheelhouse to learn all about this series – I’m learning the then new pro-tools programme, I’m writing songs, I don’t want to have to analyse this whole world!

So I called Pete back and said "I’m sorry, I love this Robert Jordan and admire what he’s done here, but it’s too much for me."
He replies "there’s an overview book of about three hundred pages that talks about the whole thing; buy that and see what you think."
So I bought it and thought well, there ya go; that explains the whole thing in three hundred pages; I can do this!
​
But I said to Pete "you’re the fan of the books, you tell me what characters you want featured and what scene you want set and I’ll refer to the book and check it out."
Meanwhile I was producing the Celtic rock band Tempest, as I still do, and I knew I wanted a lot of Celtic stuff in it, so that all developed together. The album itself was done in partnership with Peter Morticelli.
I’m glad you’ve heard that because there’s some pretty cool music on there – in fact later on I found out that Robert Jordan, who is no longer with us, liked it, which was really nice. That was pretty impressive.

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​RM: That has to be the icing on cake, when you get that sort of acknowledgement of recognition from the source, so to speak.

RB: It is. In my studio I have all sorts of stuff like that; do you know Herbie Herbert?

RM: I do indeed.

RB: Well Herbie, who was Journey’s manager, started it all for me. He managed the Robert Berry Band and he’s the one that got me to Geffen and passed me off to Brian Lane.
Herbie always wanted to have a blues band and he finally did it with the Sy Klopps Blues Band; you probably know them?

RM: I do; I have the albums.

RB: Well I did a five minute piece of blues that starts [sings] "This is the Sy Klopps Blues Band... they’re gonna rock your socks!" and then I say "Take it, Herbie!"
I gave him a cassette tape of that and I have a letter here in my studio from Herbie that says "That is one of the best all-time gifts I’ve received in my whole life." That’s really something.

I also have a letter here from Salamander & Son music – which is Ian Anderson – and that’s him saying how much he likes the version of Minstrel in the Gallery that I did on the Jethro Tull tribute album.
I also have a letter from Steve Howe, which is just crazy, because it says "You really kicked the original bass line to Roundabout all about; I love it indeed!"
I’m thinking wait a minute, that is Roundabout’s original bass line, what are you talking about! [laughs].
But those letters, from people I love and respect so much, are real treasures of mine. 

RM: I’m not surprised about the kudos received from your peers because on the two songs you mentioned, as well as others that can be found on your Prime Cuts solo album, you pay genuine musical respect to the originals while adding new arrangements or change-up twists.
It was with the aforementioned Peter Morticelli and Magna Carta that you organised, and performed on, a number of that label’s classic prog tribute albums?

RB: That’s right. The only songs I did though, like Minstrel in the Gallery, Roundabout and ELP’s Karn Evil 9 First Impression, were songs my college band Hush played.
That really paid off though because when I'm performing so many people say "it’s so great to hear that live!"

RM: As an ELP fan I have to say I really like what you did with Karn Evil 9, which also features Jordan Rudess and Simon Phillips
– that's none too shabby a power-prog trio.
Jumping back to Roundabout, you’re downplaying that bass line Steve Howe loved so much.
You bring a deeper, funky bass vibe to the rhythm of the song and that’s great, because the original bass line is somewhat sacred –
 we’re talking about one of the great bass lines on one of the great prog songs from one of the great rock bassists. Chris Squire is another musician who is sadly missed.

RB: it’s funny you should mention Chris because in the guitar room here in my studio I keep a bass guitar signed by Chris as inspiration.
I got him to sign it on the wood of the body so you can really see the signature but, originally, he said "I’ll sign the pick-guard; I won’t sign it on the wood because that will lower the value." I mean, what? [laughs]

RM: "That will lower the value" [laughs]… typical Chris.
To close, and in remembrance of another great musician gone some five years this month, I have to say Third Impression could have been sub-titled Labour of Love, because once you decided to do a second 3.2 album you clearly devoted yourself to the cause.

RB: Yes, it was really rewarding. As I said earlier though I was really worried about it; I didn’t want to ruin the love that was shown for The Rules Have Changed 
– that album was welcomed with open arms for a whole reason besides the music,
I think.
​
But there are still a lot of lyrics and things in there that stem from the loss of Keith; a great friend and a funny guy, who helped me get my biggest break ever with a Top 10 song that launched me in a worldly way instead of just local success in Californian bands.
There were so many things I lost that day, and that comes through on both 3.2 albums.

RM: Robert, this has been an absolute pleasure; thank you for spending so much time with FabricationsHQ.

RB: This has been fantastic; I’ve really enjoyed talking to you and thank you once again for your kind words about Third Impression, and your honesty, which I really appreciate. I hope we do this again!

Ross Muir
Muirsical Conversation with Robert Berry
March 2021



Article originally published on the 11th of March in tribute to, and in memory of, Keith Noel Emerson
(1944 – 2016)
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Photo Credits: Press Resources/ Robert Berry/ www.robertberry.com

3.2 The Rules Have Changed and 3.2 Third Impression are available on Frontiers Records.

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